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CHANGE OF TOPIC: LET'S LOOK AT ISLAM

Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:14 PM EST
religion, islam, christianity, atheism, judaism, politica, the-quran, the-prophet, history-of-islam, fundamentalisms, criticisms-and-freedom-of-expression
By Dr. Riccardo Privitera
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Defending Muhammad as a Prophet of God is basically impossible without throwing out the very history that Muslims have taken as fact or 1400 years.

Like the Bible and Old Testament the Qur’an (The Holy Book of Islam) relies on 3rd and 4thhand accounts; and from a few thoughts written on scraps of papers, palm leaves and stones. Like the Christian writings that were compiled 150/200 after the alleged existence of Jesus Christ and supposed crucifixion, the Qur’an was compiled 150 years after the death of Muhammad in 623AD. In the Mishtatu I Masabih, chapter 3, we are informed that by the command of the first Caliph, Abu Bakr, the text of the Qur’an was “collected” by the official scribe Zaid Ibn Thabit “from palm leaves and stones and from the breasts from those who had learnt by heart the various revelations.”

Therefore following the same path of the other two Abrahamic religions, Judaism and Christianity, Islam and its Qur’an was made up supposedly from “memory” from those who supposedly committed to memory the words of Muhammad. This hearsay argument puts the Qur’an in the same pot as the Jewish Old Testament, The New and the Christian bibles as to credibility and historical accuracy.

Al Bukhari, a Muslim scholar of the 9th – 10th Century, and one of the most authoritative of the Muslim tradition compilers writes that whenever Muhammad fell into one of his unpredictable trances his revelations were written on whatever was handy at the time. The leg or thigh bone of dead animals were used, as well as palm leaves, parchments, papers, skins, mats, stones and bark. And when there was nothing at hand his disciples attempted to memorize his words as “closely as possible”. (Zaid b Thabit said: “The Prophet died and the Qur’an had not been assembled into a single place.” Page 118, Ahmad ben Ali ben Muhammad al Asqalani ibn Hajar, “Fath al Bari”, 13 volumes, Cairo 1939/1348, Volume 9, page 9).

The situation of credibility as to the truthfulness of the Qur’an is further aggravated by what Zhuri reports, “We have heard that many of the Qur’an passages were committed to memory by the disciples, but many of those who this memory fell in the fighting at Yemama. The Battle of Yamamawas fought in December AD 632 in the plain of Aqraba in the region of Yamama between the forces of Muslim Caliph Abu Bakr and Musaylimah, a self-proclaimed prophet. During the battle of Yamama 450 reciters of the Quran were killed in combat. Those passages memorized by them had not been written and therefore died with their owners, before the Caliph Abu Bakr had the time to get his scribes to commit them to paper. (Ref .Light of Life, Austria, page 47 citing Ibn Kathir’s Al-Bidaya wa al-Nibaya, chapter of the battle of Yamama).

Here it is evident that aside the credibility of the Qur’an we have also to deal with an incomplete account as to the “revelations” to the supposed Prophet Muhammad by God. And there is more incompletion as to the integrity and completeness of the Qur’an, as there were other losses that were caused by natural, but less brutal mishaps than war as we can see from:

What Muhammad child wife Aisha said after his death:

“The verse of the stoning and of suckling an adult ten times were, they were written on paper kept under my bed; when the messenger of Allah, my beloved husband passed away we were so preoccupied with the arrangements concerning his death, a goat entered the bedroom and ate the paper.” (What a Bummer! [References: Musnad Ahmad bin Hanbal, volume 6, page 629; Ibn Qutbah, Tawil Muhktalafi’l Hadith – Cairo: Maktaba al-Kulliyat al-Azhariyya, 1966, page 310; As-Suyuty ad Durru’l Manthur, Volume 2, page 13).

What is the Qur’an in effect?

It is a supposed collection of revelations that God made to Muhammad his Prophet, what today we would define a sort of PA to the CEO, Muslims believe that the Qur’an was revealed from God to Muhammad through the angel Gabriel (a sort of executive Vice-President) from 610 to 632 CE, the year of his death. Muhammad recited the Qur’an to his followers, numbering tens of thousands, who recited after him, until they had memorized it. He also dictated it to his scribes (Muhammad was illiterate) who wrote down its verses during his life, which has we have seen at the beginning used to most advanced means of recording data available in those days.

The text of the Qur’an consists of 114 chapters of varying lengths, each known as a sura. Chapters are classed as Meccan or Medinan, depending on when (before or after Hijra) the verses were revealed. Chapter titles are derived from a name or quality discussed in the text, or from the first letters or words of the sura. Muslims believe that Muhammad, on God's command, gave the chapters their names. Generally, longer chapters appear earlier in the Qur’an, while the shorter ones appear later. The chapter arrangement is thus not connected to the sequence of revelation. Each sura except the ninth starts with the Basmala, an Arabic phrase meaning (“In the name of God, Most Gracious, Most Merciful”). There are, however, still 114 occurrences of the Basmala in the Qur’an, due to its presence in verse 27:30 as the opening of Solomon's letter to the Queen of Sheba.

Each sura is formed from several ayat(verses), which originally means a sign or portent sent by God. The number of verses differs from chapter to chapter. An individual verse may be just a few letters or several lines. The verses are unlike the highly refined poetry of the pre-Islamic Arabs in their content and distinctive rhymes and rhythms, being more akin to the prophetic utterances marked by inspired discontinuities found in the sacred scriptures of Judaism and Christianity. The actual number of ayat has been a controversial issue among Muslim scholars since Islam's inception, some recognizing 6,000, some 6,204, some 6,219, and some 6,236, although the words in all cases are the same. The most popular edition of the Qur’an, which is based on the Kufa school tradition, contains 6,236 ayat.

There is a crosscutting division into 30 parts of roughly equal division, ajza, each containing two units called ahzab, each of which is divided into four parts (rub 'al-ahzab). The Qur’an is also divided into seven approximately equal parts, manazil, for it to be recited in a week.

The Qur’anic text seems to have no beginning, middle, or end, its nonlinear structure being akin to a web or net. The textual arrangement is sometimes considered to have lack of continuity, absence of any chronological or thematic order, and presence of repetition.

Fourteen different Arabic letters form 14 different sets of “Qur’anic Initials” (the "Muqatta'at", such as A.L.M. of 2:1) and prefix 29 suras in the Qur’an. The meaning and interpretation of these initials is considered unknown to most Muslims. In 1974, Egyptian biochemist Rashad Khalifa claimed to have discovered a mathematical code based on the number 19, which is mentioned in Sura 74:30 of the Qur’an.

Like all religions Islam (literal meaning: complete surrender to Him (God), is a brainwashing religion, the text of the Qur’an have to be memorized and repeated endless times, and like all religion the brainwashing begins when the individual is at its most vulnerable, childhood.

The oldest Qur’an available is from around 790 AD and is in the British Library.

As a book the Qur’an if studied closely has little or nothing to do with any God, but with the political, military and sexual ambitions of one man: Muhammad.

Who is Muhammad?

Muhammad ibn ‘Abdullāh was born in Mecca in 570 AD and died in 623AD, orphaned at an early he was brought up by an uncle, and worked as a merchant and a sheppard. He married at 25 and then one day tired of life in Mecca decided to retire into a cave and meditate as to the meaning of life. It is believed that at the age of 40 he received his first revelation from God, and according to Islamic Tradition after three years from this event he started preaching the word of God and that complete surrender to him (henceforth the term Islam), was the only acceptable to him, and no compromise could be possible.

It is difficult to know for certain what the life was like for this man in his youth, as like with the figure of Jesus Christ it is at times difficult to separate facts from legend and inventions. What is certain is that at one point he went Medina, and in fact according to Islamic Tradition his life is Muhammad's life is traditionally defined into two periods: pre-hijra (emigration) in Mecca (from 570 to 622), and post-hijra in Medina (from 622 until 632).

In Medina he managed to unite the tribes and after a bitter war with the tribes that rotated round Mecca he finally conquered Mecca in January 630 AD (10th day of Ramadan, 8 AH). It is called Fatah-e-Mubeen, The Glorious Victory.

During his life Muhammad led 27 military Campaigns, massacred thousands of innocent civilians, and attacked countless caravans. “I am the Prophet that laughs when killing my enemies.” (Hadith)

Muhammad was most certainly an epileptic; in fact the seizures that preceded his Revelations are typical of epilepsy. Now that aside, if one has to examine some of the things this man got up to then with the eyes of today, he’d be indicted of War Crimes, Murder, Torture, Rape and Pedophilia.

Just to give a few examples:

- In order to finance his military campaigns he attacked and pillaged countless caravans

- He was a true “stay behind” leader has he kept well away from the wars he sent other to fight.

- He beheaded 800 Jewish men who had been living for centuries in Mecca for the simple reason that they refused to accept him as their leader and a Prophet of God. Furthermore he traded the wives and daughters of these men for weapons and horses.

- He was completely intolerant of criticism, and sent an assassin to kill a woman who was nursing an infant, as she had written poems that he considered against him.

- He sentenced a woman to death by having her limbs attached to camels moving in the opposite directions pulling her apart, and beheaded her and paraded her severed head through the streets of Medina.

- He tortured to death a young Jewish tribal leader in order to get his money, then forced his 17 years old wife to marry him on the same night and raped her.

- He forced his own son to divorce his wife so that he could marry her.

- He was bestowed a 6 year old girl in marriage, and he consummated the marriage when she was nine and he 50, damaging her physically so that she could never get pregnant.

All this is nothing but the tip of a very big iceberg on what kind of man was Muhammad, Prophet of God. A live broadcast in 2008 on Al-Hayat TV lasting 90 minutes Father Zakariya Boutros discussed publicly dozens of stories that Muhammad “stole” from the Old and New Testaments as well as from the Midrash and other ancient Jewish documents, and inserted them in the Qur’an as revelations from Allah. Father Zakariya makes a very clear distinction between plagiarism, which is the Arabic word “iqtibas” and theft. He demonstrates that Muhammad didn’t merely copy and paste into the Qur’an these stories but actually changed them in their essential meaning so that Muhammad would appear not merely similar but essentially superior to individuals such as Moses, Adam, and Abraham whose alleged stories he stole.

Muhammad had 13 wives; his youngest Aisha was 9 years old a fact that in this day an age would land him in a register for sex offenders and pedophiles; and on top that his life was a circus of sexual escapades with concubines and slaves.

It is funny to see how in the West Muslims follow a different approach when obliged to defend the unsavory facts on the life of their Prophet, they simply present the information about Muhammad in a way that ignores the reality of his actions.

Reza Aslan, an internationally acclaimed author, in his book “No God but God”, describes the raids led by Muhammad and his followers on unarmed villages and caravans as a type of “spring games” engaged by everyone in that era, this is tantamount to defining the Charge of the Light Brigade as an innocuous military exercise involving innocent Russian bystanders.

Dr. T Ramadan, Professor of Islamic Studies at the University of Geneva, with whom I crossed “intellectual swords” personally because of my activity as an associate professor of Ancient History accredited in various Universities, including Switzerland during a public debate on the History of Religion and the theological and historical differences between Judaism, Christianity and Islam, in his book “The Footsteps of the Prophet” acknowledges that Muhammad was “engaged” to Aisha when she was 6 and goes on saying that he married her “several years later”, which I suppose is better than saying that he consummated the marriage when she was 9. He further admits that Muhammad allows men “to beat their wives” in the Qur’an but claims that Muhammad himself “never struck a woman”, and that therefore according to my illustrious colleague, he is a true “role model” for men in their relationship to women. When I challenged him on that issue and quoted a on the passage in the Hadith, that are narrations concerning the deeds and actions of the Prophet Muhammad, and actually a book of great relevance in Islamic Jurisprudence, where Aisha herself says that: “ Muhammad, my husband struck me on the chest so hard that it hurt me” when she followed him outside; or when I raised the issue of Sofiah, the 17 year Jewish girl forced to lay with Muhammad on the same day he had tortured and killed her husband in front of her, or the forced seduction of the young Christian Copt slave Mary, in the house of one of his wives Hafsah, or the many forced sexual intercourses on female slaves and prisoners of war by himself and his followers, and asked him to justify what kind of role model to other men can Muhammad be with such a pedigree, considering that Islam is a Patriarchal society where women are totally subjugated to men; he immediately stated that I was being disrespectful and offensive to his religion and furthermore I was even attacked by some other non Muslim members of the panel has being offensive and politically incorrect.

So one lesson that can certainly learnt from this is that the same way as “Gunny Highway” played by Clint Eastwood, in the film Heartbreak Ridge, after firing a few rounds of an AK-47 said to his men: “Ladies this is the AK-47 Assault rifle, the preferred weapon of your enemies, it makes a distinctive sound, so remember it.” Political Correctness has become the preferred weapon of all religious fanatics whatever the denomination, as an effective means of avoiding criticisms and challenges to their supposed versions of the truth. And it works because most people are afraid to challenge them.

I really do not have that problem.

What is the Legacy left by Mohammad?

Aside his “role model” for all men in their relationship to women and the saying: “When you get home beat your wife, you don’t know why but she does”, he has left us with a Religion that declares itself a Religion of Peace, but this peace is extended only to the Muslim communities. Regarding the rest of us non-Muslims the Qur’an is quite specific:

Surah 48:29 - Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah those who follow him are merciful to one another, but ruthless to unbelivers.

Surah 9:5-Kill the Mushrikun (Unbelievers) wherever you find them, and capture them and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush…..

Surah 9:29- Fight against those of the Scripture (Jews and Christians) as believe they not in Allah nor the Last Day, and forbid not that Allah hath forbidden by His Messenger, and allow not their religion of untruth, till they pay tribute………………………

Surah 47:4- Therefore when you meet the unbelievers, smite at their necks, till you have totally subdued them, bind a bond firmly (on them); thereafter it is time for either generosity or ransom: until war lays down its burdens. Thus (are ye commanded); as it is Allah’s will he could have certainly exacted retribution from them (Himself) but he lets you fight, so as to test you and the others. But (for) those who are slain in the Way (Name) of Allah, He (The Prophet) will make sure that their deeds will never be lost.

Suras 6:34, 6-115, 10:64, 50:28 and 50:29 clearly Sais to Muslims, “No change can there be in the words of Allah, and that Allah cannot alter (or abrogate) his words.

Though as I said, all religions are based on the principle of indoctrination and brainwashing, all believers in the three religions derived from Abraham, Islam, Judaism, and Christianity manifest a blind faith in something that has no real standing in the facts of history nor in the facts of science, of the three the most dangerous one is Islam.

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Dr. Riccardo Privitera

As person opposed to any form of religious indoctrination and brainwashing by any religious denomination and a firm believer of the principle of Separation of Church and State, I have concentrated more on the growing phenomenon of Christian fundamentalism as a political force. So I have been accused of being rather one sided, and some fellow newsviners have gone has far as calling me the "Pen of the antichrist" and the scribe of Satan. Islam has been around for 1400 years, and is a religion that has firmly diluted the principles of Separation of Church and State, in certain countries and has overtly hegemonic ambitions to be the sole religion and the sole law of the world one day. There are over a billion Muslims in the world today, and we in Europe have allowed millions to settle down in our cities and nations. They don't integrate, they scorn our institutions and so far there has been as sense of appeasement and "laisse fair" from our political classes more intent on capitalizing on their money for either personal or party reasons, and a vested interest from a certain corporate world that can see only profits, and has imposed at political level empirical rules of political correctness to intellectually and factually castrate any constructive criticisms to the Statu Quo. Some things are now changing, but not fast enough.

  • 14 votes
Reply#1 - Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:33 PM EST
gordy327

So I have been accused of being rather one sided

Sure, on the side of logic and rational thinking. I could live with that "accusation." I'd even take it as a compliment. :)

and some fellow newsviners have gone has far as calling me the "Pen of the antichrist" and the scribe of Satan.

Now that is a compliment. lol

As person opposed to any form of religious indoctrination and brainwashing by any religious denomination and a firm believer of the principle of Separation of Church and State,

Same here!

Some things are now changing, but not fast enough.

At least it's changing. That's a start.

  • 4 votes
#1.1 - Sat Nov 13, 2010 9:29 PM EST
Dr. Riccardo Privitera

Gordy its always a pleasure to see you on my Forums. You know if you would have been attending that famous debate at the University in Geneva, when I got into a hell of an argument with Prof Ramadan, you would have loved it.

I can you belive this? Presenting this guy as a role model for all men in their relationships with women???And then when I contradicting him, immediately the persecution card comes out, and I am politically incorrect and abusive?? I even got a letter from the Dean, saying that I was "too precipitous in my judgement and that I should have acted with more diplomacy so as not to offend the sensiblities of a colleague." What can I do if I have a very low tolerance for bull.........

By the way drop me your E-Mail, I'll send you a letter I received from our Knight of Christ on the other debate, a real piece of work that I'll be sending to the Newsvine Administrators so that this one is never allowed in again.

Have a good weekend

Riccardo

  • 7 votes
#1.2 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:46 AM EST
gordy327

Gordy its always a pleasure to see you on my Forums.

The pleasure's all mine doc. I enjoy your forums.

You know if you would have been attending that famous debate at the University in Geneva, when I got into a hell of an argument with Prof Ramadan, you would have loved it.

I'll bet! :)

Presenting this guy as a role model for all men in their relationships with women???And then when I contradicting him, immediately the persecution card comes out, and I am politically incorrect and abusive??

Is this that argument you had?

What can I do if I have a very low tolerance for bull.........

Nothing! There shouldn't be ANY tolerance for BS! If there's one thing I'm intolerant of, it's BS. And ignorance!

I'll send you a letter I received from our Knight of Christ on the other debate, a real piece of work that I'll be sending to the Newsvine Administrators so that this one is never allowed in again.

Whoa, this should be good, :P

Have a good weekend

Thanks ric, you too.

  • 1 vote
#1.3 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:11 AM EST
Reply
William H. Bickers

Let's get to the core of the problem that plagues humanity. God or Allah if you prefer, said that serious harm is occurring to living life. Read: http://www.moonofmemphisufo.com to learn the current issues that God or Allah is concern about.

  • 4 votes
Reply#2 - Sat Nov 13, 2010 6:58 PM EST
Dr. Riccardo Privitera

What can say Captain Bickers, I am surprised that you of all people, being an military man, could actually write such an article. I was a military man too in my life, and if there is one thing I learnt for certain in the battlefields of Angola and Mozambique, is that there is no God on a battlefield, only those who live and those who die. In any case you have my deepest respect for your views even if I don't share them.

  • 9 votes
#2.1 - Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:08 PM EST
Neron Kesar

God is indeed on the battlefield.

  • 7 votes
#2.2 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:01 AM EST
JackOL-1666973

If that's the case, then what was he thinking?

  • 1 vote
#2.3 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:21 AM EST
Dr. Riccardo Privitera

To Neron Kesar, "Ave Kesar Morituri te Salutant", and don't tell me that with such a nickname you want me to translate this. LOL.

You know my friend, the issue isn't God on a battlefield, as if one looksat the positive aspects of religious teaching, all men of reason, whether they believe in God or not, can comply with. Not killing, not raping, not betraying your friends, respect of others, helping those in need, etc. What really gets on my nerves is the hypocrisy of some of these so called "holier than thou" individuals, be it priests, Evangelical leaders, Rabbis or Imams, that preach something and do the complete opposite of what they preach to people.

This guy Muhammad, Prophet of God, when one sits down open the books and begins to read, and analyse the contradictions with an open mind, and an objective thinking one cannot help getting angry at such blatant hypocrisy. I grew up in South Africa, and I have lived with such hypocrisy all my life, the Afrikaners (descendants of the early Dutch Settlers), all Lutherans, Calvinists, or Protestants, all going to their churches on Sunday and praying, and then they seemed completely at ease with the policies of Apartheid, so here we were 3.5 million whites, segregating 30 million blacks, and no one though that this was immoral. It was normal for some of them to force sex on their black servants, or workers,to the point that the Government forced the Race Relations Act in 1972, which forbade sexual contacts amongst the different races. And the truth of the reason of the Act was exactly directed to all these "God Fearing men" that were creating a volume of mixed race children that was getting out hand.

So you know, my friend, its not much what people believe or not, but I really wish to see people take responsiblity and act according to their chosen way of life, instead of pretending and expect other to do and behave in a way that they are not prepared to observe. when I was an officer in the army the first thing I learnt is that to be a good officer you lead from the front not from behind.

  • 3 votes
#2.4 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:24 AM EST
Randilly

God is indeed on the battlefield.

If that's the case, then what was he thinking?

"Oh God, do I want to Puke!"

(Just a suggestion)

  • 1 vote
#2.5 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:15 AM EST
Dr. Riccardo Privitera

Hi Randilly, love your sense of humor. LOL

  • 3 votes
#2.6 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 10:20 AM EST
Neron Kesar

"Aut non."

I agree with you wholeheartedly that religion is a lifestyle.

I also think it is important thus to engage in open academic debate without threat of coercion or repercussion.

BTW, I have a relative who works for the UN in Geneva.

  • 5 votes
#2.7 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:30 PM EST
Reply
King Dave

Thanks Dr. Well written. My favorite subject is ancient history, so religion fit in this interest. I would love to add something to your article but you covered it all. Well done. This line summed it up:

As a book the Qur'an if studied closely has little or nothing to do with any God, but with the political, military and sexual ambitions of one man: Muhammad.

This of course, can be said of all religious texts. From a leaders position, "Why mess with something proved to work?" Also this:

Father Zakariya Boutros discussed publicly dozens of stories that Muhammad "stole" from the Old and New Testaments as well as from the Midrash and other ancient Jewish documents, and inserted them in the Qur'an as revelations from Allah.

Which were plagiarized from older Egyptian and Babylonian texts. Code of Hammurabi on clay tablets for one example. At least Moses shortened them a little.

sexual ambitions of one man:

Still used today frequently; Brain David Mitchell, Phillip Garrido, Brigham Young....Where do they get these crazy ideas?

The purpose of Religious criticism, is to help the helpless. That is truly great and selfless human work! Thnx Dr....P.S. Don't forget Joseph Smith!

  • 5 votes
Reply#3 - Sat Nov 13, 2010 8:58 PM EST
Dr. Riccardo Privitera

IN REPLY TO KING DAVE

Glad to find a fellow "afictionado" of history Dave, and I agree with you the Jewish text were actually taken from ancient Babylon and Egypt, and good that you mentioned the codes of Hammurabi, one of those documents that still today has a great influence.

It's a given that sex and power seem to go together for these guys, impose the Missionary position to the Plebes, and practice the Kama Sutra with your secretary. Hypocrits! I don't know if you have ever read Diplomacy by Henry Kissinger, but there is passage there, that relates to the meeting between Nixon and Mao (another sexual predator and pedophile with a taste for 14 to 15 years old girls), and Mao ask Kissenger, "How come that such an ugly man has yourself, as all these beautiful young women at his following?", and Kissinger answered: "Well Mr.Chairman, as you know power is a great aphrodisiac."

Correct me if I am wrong but when you mention Joseph Smith, is that the guy that in 1830 or somewhere there received some golden balls or cups and created a whole new Church? I am not sure but is that to do with the Mormons?

  • 4 votes
#3.1 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:47 AM EST
Reply
Neron Kesar

Religion is a matter of faith. There is no debate that can change the formula.

  • 6 votes
Reply#4 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:04 AM EST
Whoisme

Very nice.

  • 1 vote
#4.1 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:44 AM EST
JackOL-1666973

Sadly, faith is believing in things you ought not nor have any reason to believe in.

  • 2 votes
#4.2 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:20 AM EST
Dr. Riccardo Privitera

Neron I agree with on this, it is a matter of faith and an individual choice.

  • 3 votes
#4.3 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:52 AM EST
Dr. Riccardo Privitera

Jack 16, Hi there my friend, I know what you saying and yes on a rational basis I agree with you, but we both know that faith is irrational, so it is an individual's choice, I think both camps can cohabit as long as one doesn't try to prevaricate on the other.

  • 4 votes
#4.4 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:55 AM EST
Dr. Riccardo Privitera

WHOISME

Thank you very much for your comment and welcome to the debate.

  • 1 vote
#4.5 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:56 AM EST
JackOL-1666973

Dr R P -

I can go along with that as long as those are the ground rules. If one wants to have faith in something to give themself an unwarranted comfort level, that's fine. Simply do not tell me that I'll be sorry and will need to beg for forgiveness on bended knee when he arrives.

  • 1 vote
#4.6 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:11 AM EST
Dr. Riccardo Privitera

Absolutely Jack! Hey remember that maniac in the last debate, the Knight of Christ, he called me the Scribe of Satan and the pen of the Antichrist, he has even sent me threating E-mails, so blemey, as long people keep to the grounds fine, when they don't ....gloves on.

  • 2 votes
#4.7 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:15 AM EST
Neron Kesar

he called me the Scribe of Satan and the pen of the Antichrist, he has even sent me threating E-mails

Two points:

1. Evidently this person is not aware of my Newsvine column. I promote the genuine Antichrist as the world's solution. He is a second messiah, not the spawn of Satan.

2. Threats are not tolerated on or via Newsvine. Threats demean the tenor of discussion and the overall morale of the Vine. If the party in question threatens anyone again, the evidence should be forwarded to Newsvine staff for immediate action.

  • 5 votes
#4.8 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:39 PM EST
Dr. Riccardo Privitera

That's exactly what I doing I am sending a copy of the E-Mail with a covering letter and get him kicked out. He went too far Neron, that is unacceptable. I'll check your column as well, sound very interesting.

  • 3 votes
#4.9 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 4:37 PM EST
Reply
Decurion_505

Great work, Doc. This is what I call "getting the word out". Keep it up!

  • 2 votes
Reply#5 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 5:59 AM EST
Dr. Riccardo Privitera

Hello Decurion ( I like the name by the way) thanks or joining us, and thank you for your words, I appreciate them.

  • 2 votes
#5.1 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:57 AM EST
Reply
Sarah_alkhal

I am a misfortunate born Muslim. I totally agree with what is mentioned in the article, especially the last part (the most dangerous one is islam). i wish I could leave Islam but where I live, I can't! But at heart, I'm agnostic long time ago.

  • 2 votes
Reply#6 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 6:03 AM EST
Dr. Riccardo Privitera

Dear Sara, I am honoured that you left this comment and that you have joined us in this debate, having travelled extensively in the Middle East, I have pretty fair notion of what you must be going through, and I wish you all the best from the bottom of my heart. Thank you for making the work I put on this worthwhile, for your statement in your present situation is worth more than you imagine. Keep Safe, Riccardo.

  • 3 votes
#6.1 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:04 AM EST
Kryon

Really saddened to learn about your "misfortune".It is truly a "misfortune" that you are still living a safe life in your country since some potential criminal believes in your religion and that he will be punished for his crimes.If you have thought of things other than just yourself you would have seen what sort of magic this religion is performing for 1400 years.And no...I dont mean brainwashing !!I would really like to understand how being a Muslim has brought you misfortunes that have surpassed all your other unrelated misfortunes so much that you have ended up not only questioning your faith but agreeing with some unproven theories.And what do you need to do other than not believing in Islam to leave this religion.Change your name perhaps or announce your belief in a packed marketplace.Are you absolutely certain that you have not based your belief due to perhaps troublesome life,certain misfortunes or perhaps its just too much of rules to follow?

    #6.2 - Tue Jan 11, 2011 5:50 PM EST
    Socrates1

    Isn't the answer quite obvious....she is afraid for her safety......

      #6.3 - Wed Jan 12, 2011 1:57 AM EST
      Dr. Riccardo Privitera

      It is truly a "misfortune" that you are still living a safe life in your country since some potential criminal believes in your religion and that he will be punished for his crimes.If you have thought of things other than just yourself you would have seen what sort of magic this religion is performing for 1400 years KRYON

      Reading this closely and between the lines, I truly don't like its meaning. Why is it a "misfortune" that she is still living safely in her own country? What would be her "fortune", bestoned, hanged, tortured? Because that's usually what happens in these countries that have benefited of 1400 years of "Islamic Enlightenment"., when someone disagrees. I have seen with my own eyes the behaviour of the Religious Police in Saudi, very enlightening to say the least.

      • 1 vote
      #6.4 - Wed Jan 12, 2011 8:18 AM EST
      Kryon

      @Dr. Riccardo Privitera
      Time and again you have given references to Saudi Arab and the Middle East as if they are the torch bearers of Islam. I find it rather pointless in your references to a country with not a single university ranked in the top ten universities or a country that cannot build a comb on its own. Certainly it seems that you have an extensive idea about Saudi Arab. What do the religious police do when princes of the kingdom arrange lavish parties full of booze and woman? According to wikileaks document they look the other way. So are they following Islam in this case? Do you think princes arranging these parties or the religious police have anything to do with Islam? In her case I have already stated some of the reasons why a person would want to leave Islam. And I would really like to understand her own reasons. Frankly the only repercussion she would be having by leaving her faith is that she would be shunned by her relative. It's quite common and happens to Muslim converts as well.

        #6.5 - Thu Jan 13, 2011 5:10 PM EST
        Reply
        David S Jones

        a goat entered the bedroom and ate the paper.”

        Haha. Is that the Islam equivalent to My Dog Ate It


        Thanks for the good read.

        I'm not sure if I agree with the notion that Islam is the most dangerous. I mean, it is, but not because it's scripture is more threatening or violent. A lot of the dangers of Islam derive from Middle Eastern leaders who use it to control the masses. Kings/Imam's/Dictators who use fear to prevent people from questioning their rule. Much like Christianity in the dark ages.

        • 1 vote
        Reply#7 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:54 AM EST
        Dr. Riccardo Privitera

        Hello David, how are you doing? LOL, probably it is Islamic equivalent of "my dog ate", ahahah.

        I agree with you on the principle that no religion in per se dangerous, what is dangerous is the various religious leaders and their interpretation, influnce, and power of conditioning that they have on the intellectually weaker members of the human race. Islamic religious leaders are particularly dangerous.

        • 3 votes
        #7.1 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:09 AM EST
        Reply
        Goes

        Very informative article, but each of the points you raised can consume several articles to discuss them in details. You can take a look on my column for related articles.

        Thank you for the information.

        • 4 votes
        Reply#8 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:35 AM EST
        Dr. Riccardo Privitera

        Hello Goes, as advised went to your column and read some of your work, excellent. Thank for joining us in this forum you are most welcome.

        • 2 votes
        #8.1 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:57 PM EST
        walt-567637

        Hey, I agree with 'Goes', thanks for the very interesting information. Hope others read this.

        • 2 votes
        #8.2 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:09 PM EST
        Dr. Riccardo Privitera

        Thank you Walt you are most welcome and I am glad that you found the article of interest.

        • 1 vote
        #8.3 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:28 PM EST
        Reply
        Elaine-1503791

        Doc Ric, what an excellent article. I'm clipping this to my column for future reference and to some groups I'm in. Thank you so much for the in-depth information you have provided. I plan to read this again to make sure I learn and retain what you have written.

        • 3 votes
        Reply#9 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:46 AM EST
        Dr. Riccardo Privitera

        Elaine thanks for your comments, I am glad that you find the article of interest and hope to have you as a regular commentator in future ones.

        • 1 vote
        #9.1 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:58 PM EST
        Elaine-1503791

        Goes directed me here for which I thank him. I see by your comment above that you have looked at Goes page, and if you aren't already familiar with kpr37, you may be interested in checking out his column also.

        I have a question, are you familiar with a book called "Three Magic Words" by Uel S Andersen? It's out of print but is still available on Amazon, I highly recommend it if you haven't already read it. It is described as "new age self help" but it is metaphysics and was written in 1954, so I doubt it qualifies as "new age".

        • 1 vote
        #9.2 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:12 PM EST
        walt-567637

        Elaine sorry to stick my nose in this, but....Try Abebooks.com or Bookfinder.com, Sorry Doc.

        • 1 vote
        #9.3 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:20 PM EST
        Elaine-1503791

        That's ok Walt, Amazon has the book but either of those others may have it as well. I just remembered as I write this that Amazon is being boycotted for the pedophile book, so maybe the sites Walt recommended would be better.

          #9.4 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:23 PM EST
          Dr. Riccardo Privitera

          Thanks for the tip Elaine, I will check on Amazon as I have an account with them as I collect old films, so I will try and get it. I always love reading new things and discovering new authors, in fact I confess that I had never heard of the book and of the Author.

          • 2 votes
          #9.5 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:32 PM EST
          Elaine-1503791

          The original is the yellow cover with aladin's lamp on it. Could be a collectors item one day.

          • 1 vote
          #9.6 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:35 PM EST
          Reply
          Woodysr

          Well said! Dr R. P. Religion is but a form of government and a poor one at that!

          • 1 vote
          Reply#10 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 12:14 PM EST
          Randilly

          More like a form of Politics.

          The big shots went to the temple, to discuss the issues of the day, the Priests being big shots too, said we'll go with what the rest of the big shots want, as long as we get our tithes, sacrifices, and virgins. And to sweeten the deal, we'll proclaim that this is what Baal(insert your deity here) wants the people to do.

          Most Religious wars, were in fact Political wars.

            #10.1 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 1:05 PM EST
            Dr. Riccardo Privitera

            Yeah, if religion kept out of politics the world would be a nicer place to live on.

            • 2 votes
            #10.2 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:33 PM EST
            Reply
            Woodysr

            Many years ago in HS, my English professor used to sptl out the following, as best I recall;

            "Nothing in the history of mankind has ever fomented as much hate and discontent ...as organized religion"

            I always thought it was Volataire but can find no instance of it in my meager library. Can any of you folks correct me? The older I get, the more I am convinced of the accuracy of the quote!

              Reply#11 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:48 PM EST
              Elaine-1503791

              http://www.humanismbyjoe.com/religion_quotes.htm

              "[M]ore wars have been waged, more people killed, and more evil perpetrated in the name of religion than by any other institutional force in human history. The sad truth continues in our present day." Charles Kimball

              "Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction." Blaise Pascal

              "Christianity is the most ridiculous, the most absurd and bloody religion that has ever infected the world." Voltaire

                #11.1 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:57 PM EST
                Randilly

                I can't help you attribute the quote. But it doe's remind me of a quote my father got from a buddy of his:

                "Ever since mankind came out of the trees, he has had three millstones around his neck: Ignorance, Superstition, and Organized Religion."

                I don't quote this often on the 'vine, because I don't want to wear it out. Plus it is also one of my Fathers more comman sayings as I was growing up. Along with: "Think for yourself...Think!".

                  #11.2 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 2:58 PM EST
                  Woodysr

                  My English teacher of years ago possibly coined the statement himself, based on his knowledge, education. (UVA) He was a terrific teacher. He passed away years ago and I still have the greatest respect for him and his teaching. (I sincerely regret that I was such a brat!) Col H.F. could read Poe better than one can imagine.

                  Thanks for 11.1 and 11.2, good inputs

                    #11.3 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 8:38 PM EST
                    Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                    THIS IS A JOKE, related to me by Ahmed one of my History students here at the Faculty, a young man with a great sense of humor and whose family was killed in Iran for opposing the regime.

                    Three women die and end up in Heaven, they are show in by Moses holding a file with several names. "Your name?" sais Moses to the first one, "Fatima your excellency", answers the first one, covered by a thick Burka that shows only her eyes.

                    "And you?", to the next one, "Shaila, your excellency", and Moses ticks her name off the list, and then he looks at the third woman, a big, busty, tall, blond, with an excellent cleavage, and a short, very short miniskirt, and asks, "You are you? And what's your name?", "Lucille, Monsieur, and I am French." Moses rather imbarrassed checks the list, and rechecks the list, and sais, "Can't find your name on the list, there must have been a mistake somewhere, but please take a seat with the other ladies, as the Prophet Muhammad will be here shortly, and he will interview each and everyone to see if you are worthy to meet Allah."

                    About ten minute later, the first woman is called for the interview with the Prophet. And there he is sitting behind a huge desk, and on the wall behind a huge painting of Allah, and a smaller one of Aytollah Komeini on the right, and a slighty bigger one of Osama bin Laden on the left. "So what have you done woman, that I should introduce you to Allah the Allmighty?, "Well your excellency, Allah be praised that I am finally before you, I have been a good Muslim woman, prayed regularly and gave my husband all the care and loyalty that was demanded of me since I was 12 years old, fed the camels, looked after the goats, made 10 children, and never spoke out of turn.", "Good, good, that's fine", said the Prophet giving her a pink slip, 'Get out of this office, follow the corridor on your left, and check in the yellow room, somebody will pick you up, go now, Yalla, yalla."

                    The second inteview finishes in the same way, and then Moses brings in Lucille the busty, tall blonde. The Prophet looks at her, " We don't have you on the list, and I don't know who you are, tell me about you please." "Well Monsieur, what can I say? I haven't a clue where I am, and all I know that one moment I was having passionate sex with a very virile and potent young man, and I was screaming in orgasmic delight, and then I found myself in a waiting room, and this strange man with a white beard, that reminds me of that American actor Charlton Heston, tells me I have sit down and wait. I am French, and I am a stripper by night and a good secretary by day, I love sex and men, and the Kama Sutra is almost second nature, I really don't know what else I can say.", the Prophet stands up smiling, "Ah, Allah be Praised, Allah u Akbar............... You go to my room."

                    • 6 votes
                    #11.4 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 7:11 AM EST
                    Reply
                    Bif Biffleston

                    Those passages memorized by them had not been written and therefore died with their owners...

                    Ahhh, obviously the 'religion of peace' parts no doubt. Damn shame.

                    • 1 vote
                    Reply#12 - Sun Nov 14, 2010 7:49 PM EST
                    Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                    Hello Bif, and welcome. Yeah! You are probably right the whole chapter regarding "peace and tolerance" went missing. Microsoft and backup systems weren't around in those days, plus if you add the fact that goats make lousy house pets, it does make it difficult to keep a coherent text doesn't it?

                    • 2 votes
                    #12.1 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:25 AM EST
                    Reply
                    Socrates1

                    Excellent piece of work. Frankly I believe we have had some discussions on your views regarding Christianity some time ago, so it's nice to see you put your text where your mouth was. ie. recognizing that one can also criticize Islam without using Christianity as an excuse to "forgive Islam for its excesses".

                    I was interested to see some of the people who commented, and then, unfortunately, not surprised as they once again attempted to move the discussion towards Christianity. As you noted, you may not believe in any of them, but you know which is the most dangerous. Each should stand on its own, and be judged as such.

                    • 4 votes
                    Reply#13 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 1:02 AM EST
                    Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                    Hello Socrates, long time no see, hope you are well, and welcome to the Forum. Thank you for your comment and I am glad that you found the article intersting.

                    • 1 vote
                    #13.1 - Mon Nov 15, 2010 6:27 AM EST
                    Reply
                    Just2Reason

                    Re: "Like all religions Islam ... is a brainwashing religion, ... and like all religion the brainwashing begins when the individual is at its most vulnerable, childhood.

                    I've been talking about just that for years. Given that around 92% of Americans believe in God, and that idea is crystallized, I don't find much in the way of open-minded conservations. It's nice to read an article by someone else who recognized this. I was raised in a fundamentalist Baptist environment, and never bought it. My two siblings did.

                    Regarding the brainwashing, here's something I've found that is very notable. Find yourself a Baptist who went to church every week as a kid, and goes to church as an adult, and not because of his spouse. Ask him a very simple question. Do you think if you were raised in a Muslim country by Muslim parents you would be arguing Islam instead of Christianity? You can't get most people in that category within a mile of the simple answer to that question. And the vast majority of the people who can't see the answer are conservative. It goes the same way with me - of course I wouldn't have bought Islam if raised in that reality, just like I didn't buy Christianity. It's truly an amazing thing to watch a human brain shut down, and not be able to get within a mile of a simple answer. If you haven't seen it, try it. By the way, Baptist believe Muslims are hell-bound. They also preach that Muslims have a "choice" to accept Christ and be saved. Another delusion. There is no choice. The Muslim accepted the reality presented to him as a kid just like that Christian did. This delusion about choice has another face. The Baptists also deny many of their own children a choice (I'm an exception), through the brainwashing they do. The Baptists are experts at sheltering and being on top of any non-Christian thinking, to effect brain washing. If you've been around them you will have seen their reaction to their kids being exposed to outside thinking. They have had hundreds of years of practice protecting their kids from their "God of love" so they don't make a choice.

                      Reply#14 - Tue Nov 16, 2010 4:29 PM EST
                      Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                      Just2Reason, welcome to the Forum, and my thanks for a most interesting comment. I agree with you wholeheartedly, children are neutral at birth, there are no Christian, Jewish, or Muslim Babies, there are conversely babies born to Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc. The poor little things have no defence, like you one can only hope that through study, and analytical thinking they come to their senses.

                        #14.1 - Tue Nov 16, 2010 7:38 PM EST
                        gordy327

                        I agree with you wholeheartedly, children are neutral at birth, there are no Christian, Jewish, or Muslim Babies, there are conversely babies born to Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus etc.

                        Indeed! We are all born atheist. We just happen to be indoctrinated into some religious belief early on.

                        The poor little things have no defence, like you one can only hope that through study, and analytical thinking they come to their senses.

                        We can hope. But unfortunately, most are unable to deprogram themselves, much less consider what they've been taught about religion or god is wrong. Such beliefs tend to cement itself early on and it is very difficult to remove such a block.

                        • 1 vote
                        #14.2 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:31 AM EST
                        Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                        But unfortunately, most are unable to deprogram themselves, much less consider what they've been taught about religion or god is wrong. Such beliefs tend to cement itself early on and it is very difficult to remove such a block. GORDY

                        Always a pleasure to see your comments on my Forums Gordy. By the way did you receive my E-Mail? What you saying is so true and if you have time read my latest a post Religion, Suicide Bombers and Asymmetric Warfare, you'll see how Islam applies exactly what you say and to the letter. Thanks friend you are always most welcome

                          #14.3 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 12:08 PM EST
                          Socrates1

                          Dr. Unfortunately perhaps my previous comment was in error....I see we are making the move away from the topic of Islam and back to how.."all are the same" and Christianity is bad. Oh well.

                          • 3 votes
                          #14.4 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:30 PM EST
                          missrighteous

                          I've had this same argument with many Muslims and the answer I tend to get is that Christians and Jews can only marry Christians and Jews, whereas Muslims are allowed to marry Christians and Jews as well as muslims (and then comes the famous example of Mohammed marrying the young jewish girl...).

                          Truth is, any religion that claims to be the utmost and absolute truth is a danger. Any institution that claims your life, offering in its stead some rather harsh ultimatums is a farse (SP).

                          I understand our need to believe that we go on, that we are more than just atoms. What I don't understand is how this need completely takes over our lives, turning us into a flock of sheep blindly following some poor boy with a stick.

                            #14.5 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 1:50 PM EST
                            Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                            TO SOCRATES

                            No one is moving away from the topic of Islam, however don't think that I feel that any other religious form of belief is beneficial for the psyche of young children because I don't. Children, are mere pawns in the hands of religious parents irrespective of the denomination. They are forcebly indoctrinated into the sets of beliefs of their immediate envirorment. So this something I find despicable in all religious beliefs.

                            • 1 vote
                            #14.6 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:05 PM EST
                            Socrates1

                            I'm sure you do...perhaps we can just go straight to bashing Christians and Christianity...Why even write this article at all?

                              #14.7 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:08 PM EST
                              Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                              TO MISSRIGHTEOUS

                              Welcome to the debate, and yes I agree with you that any religious beliefs that claims to have a monopoly on the truth is dangerous. Islam is extremely dangerous, and has a very well honed strategy to acheive its aims. I would invite to read my newest post, Religion, Suicide Bombers and Asymmetrical Warfare, it gives a pretty good idea of what I saying.

                              • 2 votes
                              #14.8 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 4:10 PM EST
                              Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                              SOCRATES

                              Why bash Christianity, there is no need my views on all religions are pretty evident from my column and the articles I write. I have no problem with what people choose to believe, its their choice as informed adults to believe in God, Ganeesha, Zeus or whatever floats their boat. Where I take issue is when such beliefs want to be arbitrarily imposed. such articles need to be written, Islam is fundamentally dangerous, more dangerous than other religious practices at present, because it pretends not only to be a religion but also a state. Now that is unacceptable. Read my other article, Religion, Suicide Bombers and Asymmetrical Warfare, and you'll see what I mean.

                              • 1 vote
                              #14.9 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 6:56 PM EST
                              missrighteous

                              Thank you Dr, hopping over to the other discussion. I found your article very interesting.

                                #14.10 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 7:03 PM EST
                                gordy327

                                By the way did you receive my E-Mail?

                                Yes I did. Disturbing to say the least.

                                Thanks friend you are always most welcome

                                Thanks doc.

                                perhaps we can just go straight to bashing Christians and Christianity

                                Playing the victim again soc?

                                  #14.11 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 9:59 PM EST
                                  Goes

                                  Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                  It is your right to believe or not to believe in any religion. It is our right as believers of religions to evangelize, in a respective, attractive, and polite way. It is your sole right to accept or reject our evangelizing, it is not our right to enforce our beliefs on you in any way, and anyone from either Christianity or Judaism who does that is completely in fault.

                                  Unfortunately, this is not the case with Islam. Islam is giving its followers the right, and even urging them, to enforce their belief on all mankind regardless of the method used, and it also gives them the right to go tho the extreme of killing others.

                                  And here comes the necessity, and the urge of exposing Islam to the rest of the world, before it is too late.

                                  The comparison of what Islam is doing today, and the crusades is not correct, because it is very clear in the bible that the crusaded could not be justified by the Christian belief (Mathew 5), while all terror acts by Islam is justified by both the Qur'an, and Sunnag.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #14.12 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 9:05 AM EST
                                  Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                  Thanks for your intervention Goes, I am glad you did. We are in total agreement in this, and Islam has to be exposed for what it is.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #14.13 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:00 PM EST
                                  Reply
                                  PJ Stuart

                                  Wow, Dr. P, what a powerful read. I know anything that human beings get their hands on can and has quickly become a tool to gain power, money or sex. Everything can and has been perverted to the detriment of others; usually the less powerful. Your article has shown that to be true to the point of my utter disgust. If these things are true, how can anyone twist and use the rape of a nine year old or the physical abuse of women to be the example of good, or God or anything but as you described it? I know enough about your intellect to know that these thing are recorded in history and obviously justified by those who claim Islam as their religion. As for it being a religion of 'peace', the actions and words of Mohammad and early followers show anything but peace. It is also a brave stance you take in speaking out against the things so conveniently hidden and denied by certain Muslims, some who have killed for less. If speaking the truth is politically incorrect that is a shame.

                                  Unfortunately, Islam is not the only religion to claim God that has members who do despicable things in His name. God is a cruel tool to use in the abuse of others. It has happened in every religion I am aware of and I can't think of anything more perverse. If a person claims faith, they must acknowledge this to be true. To hide behind lies and twisting of the truth just diminishes any one's claim to know God. If you claim atheism, I can hardly blame you, because of the horrible things done while hiding behind some sort of belief in God.

                                  I was not 'born' into what I have embraced to be true concerning God, faith and religion. I studied all the major religions and some minor ones as well before I made a desicion in what to believe. This may not be commonplace, in fact I would agree, much of religion is inherited by accident of birth or culture. There are though true belivers of many faiths that discovered it on their own; even at the loss of family, community and sometimes their very life.

                                  You are always interesting, honest and brilliant. I admire that and appreciate your views no matter if we may differ. It has quickly become a joy reading your thoughts, ideas and perspective. Thanks for the chance to expand my knowlegde!

                                  Your friend, PJ

                                  • 2 votes
                                  Reply#15 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 10:39 PM EST
                                  Venator

                                  I agree with you PJ,

                                  Just to add, one can still be born into a religion and still make a rational & logical decision to stay a part of such, if one truly understands what they are studying.

                                  Hello Dr.

                                  Interesting read of your perception of Islam. There was some information I did not know about prior to reading and found interesting.

                                  Although I may not agree with your view of children being raised a certain way, I do agree with you on the issue of blind faith (you discussed approve). It is not so much I do not think you are right, but more so the same situation can be applied to other aspects of life which all are mere opinion of what one thinks is right and what is wrong through their own studies. In the end neither side can prove their POV is true and the best.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #15.1 - Wed Nov 17, 2010 11:31 PM EST
                                  PJ Stuart

                                  Hey Venator, you are right, my omission of those who are born into a certain faith and are there by choice, thought, study, knowledge and understanding was not to deny their existence. Sorry about that!

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #15.2 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:02 AM EST
                                  Venator

                                  Hi PJ,

                                  It is nothing you have to be sorry about. I fully understood what you were saying and you are right. Like I said above, some people really try to study what they are a part of a some do not and just merely accept it. That attitude is present in all aspects of life and I do not think we should focus all our attention trying to eliminate that attitude from religion, just because some do not agree with it. I am not saying this about you PJ, but merely stating my view of the situation.

                                  Dr.

                                  (you discussed approve)

                                  I meant above not approve. sorry

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #15.3 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 11:10 AM EST
                                  Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                  Hello PJ, I am glad you joined us in this debate. You see my dear "political correcteness" has become the social weapon of choice of certain fringe Liberals, that tend to dismiss the reality of Islam by trying to minimize the threat, and illude themselves that the majority is not like this but only a minority and that therefore we are exaggerating because we are racists, Islamofobes and bla,bla,bla.................................. people better start waking up and take stock of reality before its too late.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #15.4 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:05 PM EST
                                  PJ Stuart

                                  The individual who works so diligently at 'politically correct' actions and words is nothing more than a coward, so in fear of offending anyone who bullies them into accepting lies, they lose themselves in the need to please those on the list of people and groups they dare not offend. Even the term 'politically correct' is a misnomer; there is nothing correct about the continuing lies being perpatrated throughout our world. I don't even understand the logic behind the practice. There is no logical reason to believe a lie. The funny thing is the radical left has many groups they refuse to be politically correct when discussing. Only those who meet their standards of whatever lopsided measuring stick used by the far left will qualify. I might have more respect for the idea of being PC if they used it in the protection of all issues and people groups, but that is not the case. They will go to the wall for one group, while using the most disgusting language to tear down another. These groups are all made up of human beings, so it is never a matter of protecting the rights of all people to believe and live as they choose. It is only those that fall into the left's strange idea of who is right and who is wrong. It is a stance based on the worst kind of hypocrisy, in my opinion. They will only protect those they deem fit in their warped view of the world.

                                  • 3 votes
                                  #15.5 - Fri Nov 19, 2010 7:43 AM EST
                                  Socrates1

                                  PJ...your analysis is what make is "politically correct" as opposed to "standing on principle". Virtually the definition of pc is the refusal to accept certain facts as true, and using twisted logic to perpetrate a falsehood.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #15.6 - Fri Nov 19, 2010 12:56 PM EST
                                  PJ Stuart

                                  Socrates, what ever happened to standing on principals, regardless of what others think? That seems to be a lost behavior that has always shown an individuals character. That's what I like about Dr. P, he writes about what he believes in, no matter what the backlash. Do we always agree, no, but I'd rather be surrounded with a few people who speak up for what they believe and stand firm, than a million PC friends so afraid to speak out and needing to choose there words very carefully lest they offend one of the groups it's on their agenda to support.

                                  This article was as fair from PC as I've read on NV, but it's the truth and that what it comes down to; speaking the truth at all costs. Take care...

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #15.7 - Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:18 PM EST
                                  Socrates1

                                  I think we agree. My problem with being PC is that when one attempts to ignore certain truths and/or bases policy on fallacious assumptions than the results are never what are predicted.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  #15.8 - Fri Nov 19, 2010 1:41 PM EST
                                  Goes

                                  Socrates1 / PJ Stuart

                                  Very honest, and courageous statement, thank you, and i double it.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #15.9 - Fri Nov 19, 2010 2:04 PM EST
                                  Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                  Both with colleagues in University and in the legal profession I am considered a bear, because I always speak my mind directly and without mincing words. PC has become intolerable and people are afraid of being attacked or criticised. As long as we won't take this particular "bull by the horns", cost what may, they will win.

                                  By the way PJ if you check your E-mails I have sent you something.

                                  • 3 votes
                                  #15.10 - Fri Nov 19, 2010 6:04 PM EST
                                  PJ Stuart

                                  I happen to like bears...I answered you last night, did I get more? I will check at once and thank you.

                                  I believe in what you have written here, as much as I wish it was not true. But hiding our heads in the sand is tantamount to denying a gun being pointed directly at our heads. Just because you believe a lie will never make it truth...

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #15.11 - Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:33 AM EST
                                  PJ Stuart

                                  GOES...thanks, I hate to believe some things, but when it's staring you in the face...

                                  Thanks for the FR! Gratefully accepted.

                                  • 1 vote
                                  #15.12 - Sat Nov 20, 2010 10:35 AM EST
                                  Reply
                                  Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                  Thanks Venator, I really do appreciate your intervention on this, and I see where you are coming from. There is truth in what you say, and in normal condition divergent opinions amongst intelligent men and women be can discussed openly and in most case the "middle ground" is found. True also that many youngsters are able through study and looking at other case scenarios, break away from certain models they were taught by their initial environment. In some case it isn't possible. Now, I would appreciate immensely that we continue this conversation, after you have given a read to my other article on the subject, Religion, Suicide Bombers and Asymmetrical Warfare, because I am sure that we can a long and interesting chat about this. Take Care.

                                  • 2 votes
                                  Reply#16 - Thu Nov 18, 2010 7:15 PM EST
                                  Kryon

                                  just one question Dr. Riccardo Privitera.Did you clarify all your accusations with any Islamic Scholar?Shabbir Ally or Dr Zakir Naik perhaps?I am pretty sure theres quite a few around your area as well.Or is it that you just don't need any clarifications since you think you are right.

                                  considering that Islam is a Patriarchal society where women are totally subjugated to men

                                  Are you talking about the society where men are liable to provide for their wives,mothers,daughters and sisters...while the woman even if she is a billionaire does not need to spend a dime on her family.Or that society where woman are treated and respected as mothers,daughters,sisters and not just some hot commodity selling her body in the name of woman's rights.

                                  regarding the quranic verses that you gave...surely after your extensive research you would know the context of each and every verses that you quoted.
                                  Could you please quote the before and after verses of Surah 9:5?

                                  Just to give a few examples:

                                  - In order to finance his military campaigns he attacked and pillaged countless caravans

                                  - He was a true "stay behind" leader has he kept well away from the wars he sent other to fight.

                                  - He beheaded 800 Jewish men who had been living for centuries in Mecca for the simple reason that they refused to accept him as their leader and a Prophet of God. Furthermore he traded the wives and daughters of these men for weapons and horses.

                                  - He was completely intolerant of criticism, and sent an assassin to kill a woman who was nursing an infant, as she had written poems that he considered against him.

                                  - He sentenced a woman to death by having her limbs attached to camels moving in the opposite directions pulling her apart, and beheaded her and paraded her severed head through the streets of Medina.

                                  - He tortured to death a young Jewish tribal leader in order to get his money, then forced his 17 years old wife to marry him on the same night and raped her.

                                  - He forced his own son to divorce his wife so that he could marry her.

                                  - He was bestowed a 6 year old girl in marriage, and he consummated the marriage when she was nine and he 50, damaging her physically so that she could never get pregnant.

                                  Some of these points seem quite one sided and without any credible links.Could you give some authentic links to your extensive analysis about Muhammad and these occurances?
                                  Lastly did you meet Dr Tariq Ramadan ( a Swiss Muslim academic with a focus in Islamic Theology. He has been ranked by Prospect and Foreign Policy as the 8th most influential contemporary intellectuals in the world. He holds an MA in Philosophy and French literature and PhD in Arabic and Islamic Studies from the University of Geneva. In Cairo, he had training in classic Islamic scholarship at Al-Azhar University.) or someone else?

                                  Thank You

                                    Reply#17 - Thu Dec 9, 2010 6:02 PM EST
                                    Elaine-1503791

                                    just one question Dr. Riccardo Privitera.

                                    That was more than one question Kryon. I have a question for you, are you new to Dr. Privitera's articles? There are quite a few with many links provided. Maybe some futher reading of the Dr.'s articles would answer your many questions.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #17.1 - Thu Dec 9, 2010 8:43 PM EST
                                    Socrates1

                                    Perhaps you would like to pick one or two and provide your "interpretation" based on facts, links, documents, etc. In other words, "facts" can appear to be "one-sided" as facts are...well...facts..and thus may have no other side.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #17.2 - Thu Dec 9, 2010 11:46 PM EST
                                    kpr37

                                    Could you please quote the before and after verses of Surah 9:5?

                                    yes, I can. Let us take a very good look at them,shall we ?

                                    Did not the classical scholars such as Ibn Abbas or Imam Ibn Kathir of the Shafi school of Islamic jurisprudence have the proper understanding of these,Qur'anic verses linked from from USC.

                                    I only used Pickthal,as he is the most widely known English translation.

                                    Let's start at the beginning of the linked tafsir. It starts here

                                    009.002

                                    PICKTHAL: Travel freely in the land four months, and know that ye cannot escape Allah and that Allah will confound the disbelievers (in His Guidance).

                                    009.003

                                    PICKTHAL: And a proclamation from Allah and His messenger to all men on the day of the Greater Pilgrimage that Allah is free from obligation to the idolaters, and (so is) His messenger. So, if ye repent, it will be better for you; but if ye are averse, then know that ye cannot escape Allah. Give tidings (O Muhammad) of a painful doom to those who disbelieve,

                                    009.004
                                    PICKTHAL: Excepting those of the idolaters with whom ye (Muslims) have a treaty, and who have since abated nothing of your right nor have supported anyone against you. (As for these), fulfil their treaty to them till their term. Lo! Allah loveth those who keep their duty (unto Him).

                                    009.005

                                    PICKTHAL: Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

                                    009.006

                                    PICKTHAL: And if anyone of the idolaters seeketh thy protection (O Muhammad), then protect him so that he may hear the Word of Allah, and afterward convey him to his place of safety. That is because they are

                                    http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/quran/009.qmt.html

                                    and here is the corresponding tasfir of Ibn Kathir, and I am not an Islamic scholar. So I let him explain it's proper interpretation

                                    This is the ayah of the sword

                                    [فَسِيحُواْ فِى الاٌّرْضِ أَرْبَعَةَ أَشْهُرٍ]

                                    Mujahid, `Amr bin Shu`ayb, Muhammad bin Ishaq, Qatadah, As-Suddiand `Abdur-Rahman bin Zayd bin Aslam said that the four months mentioned in this Ayah are the four-month grace period mentioned in the earlier Ayah,

                                    (So travel freely for four months throughout the land.) Allah said next,

                                    [فَإِذَا انسَلَخَ الأَشْهُرُ الْحُرُمُ]

                                    (So when the Sacred Months have passed...), meaning, `Upon the end of the four months during which

                                    the four months in question passed, about 1400 years ago

                                    We prohibited you from fighting the idolators,

                                    Idolaters.... people not yet Muslim

                                    and which is the grace period We gave them,then fight and kill the idolators wherever you may find them.' Allah's statement next,

                                    [فَاقْتُلُواْ الْمُشْرِكِينَ حَيْثُ وَجَدتُّمُوهُمْ]

                                    (then fight the Mushrikin wherever you find them), means, on the earth in general, except for the Sacred Area, for Allah said,

                                    fight them (non Muslims) everywhere on this earth, but Mecca

                                    [وَلاَ تُقَـتِلُوهُمْ عِندَ الْمَسْجِدِ الْحَرَامِ حَتَّى يُقَـتِلُوكُمْ فِيهِ فَإِن قَـتَلُوكُمْ فَاقْتُلُوهُمْ]

                                    (And fight not with them at Al-Masjid Al-Haram, unless they fight you there. But if they attack you, then fight them. )[2:191] Allah said here,

                                    but if you must fight in Mecca, it's Ok

                                    [وَخُذُوهُمْ]

                                    (and capture them), executing some and keeping some as prisoners,

                                    [وَاحْصُرُوهُمْ وَاقْعُدُواْ لَهُمْ كُلَّ مَرْصَدٍ]

                                    (and besiege them, and lie in wait for them in each and every ambush),

                                    do not wait until you find them.

                                    DON'T SIT AT HOME... go out and look for them

                                    Rather, seek and besiege them in their areas and forts, gather intelligence about them in the various roads and fairways so that what is made wide looks ever smaller to them.

                                    search them out,use all means at you disposal

                                    This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam,

                                    This seems rather unequivocal,and certain in it's intent.

                                    As I am a Goddess worshiping Pagan, and am quite happy in my faith.This, the above verse, may generate great animosity from the remaining members of humanity, who choose to disbielive in the prophethood of a murderous pedophile.

                                    I put forth the proposition, that this is in fact, a violation of my human rights, and a hate crime.

                                    [فَإِن تَابُواْ وَأَقَامُواْ الصَّلَوةَ وَءاتَوُاْ الزَّكَوةَ فَخَلُّواْ سَبِيلَهُمْ إِنَّ اللَّهَ غَفُورٌ رَّحِيمٌ]

                                    (But if they repent and perform the Salah,

                                    if they convert to Islam

                                    and give the Zakah,then leave their way free. Verily, Allah is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.)

                                    Abu Bakr As-Siddiq used this and other honorable Ayat as proof for fighting those who refrained from paying the Zakah.

                                    These Ayat allowed fighting people unless, and until, they embrace Islam and implement its rulings and obligations.

                                    One more time, I state clearly.I do not wish to become a Muslim !!!!!

                                    Allah mentioned the most important aspects of Islam here, including what is less important. Surely, the highest elements of Islam after the Two Testimonials, are the prayer, which is the right of Allah, the Exalted and Ever High, then the Zakah, which benefits the poor and needy. These are the most honorable acts that creatures perform, and this is why Allah often mentions the prayer and Zakah together. In the Two Sahihs, it is recorded that Ibn `Umar said that the Messenger of Allah said,

                                    «أُمِرْتُ أَنْ أُقَاتِلَ النَّاسَ حَتَّى يَشْهَدُوا أَنْ لَا إِلَهَ إِلَّا اللهُ وَأَنَّ مُحَمَّدًا رَسُولُ اللهِ وَيُقِيمُوا الصَّلَاةَ وَيُؤْتُوا الزَّكَاة»

                                    (I have been commanded to fight the people until they testify that there is no deity worthy of worship except Allah and that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah,establish the prayer and pay the Zakah.)

                                    I think this is pretty much self explanatory...is it not ?

                                    This honorable Ayah (9:5) was called the Ayah of the Sword, about which Ad-Dahhak bin Muzahim said,

                                    "It abrogated every agreement of peace between the Prophet and any idolator, every treaty, and every term.''

                                    this ABROGATED all peaceful Qur'anic verses that came before

                                    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6l2pJv_m1WAthis video,is about Qur'anic abrogation

                                    Al-`Awfi said that Ibn `Abbas commented:

                                    "No idolator had any more treaty or promise of safetyever since Surah Bara'ah was revealed. The four months, in addition to, all peace treaties conducted before Bara'ah was revealed and announced had ended by the tenth of the month of Rabi` Al-Akhir.''

                                    [وَإِنْ أَحَدٌ مِّنَ الْمُشْرِكِينَ اسْتَجَارَكَ فَأَجِرْهُ حَتَّى يَسْمَعَ كَلاَمَ اللَّهِ ثُمَّ أَبْلِغْهُ مَأْمَنَهُ ذَلِكَ بِأَنَّهُمْ قَوْمٌ لاَّ يَعْلَمُونَ ]

                                    (6. And if anyone of the Mushrikin seeks your protection then grant him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an) and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.)

                                    so that he may hear the Word of Allah and naturally, become a Muslim.

                                    But what if he does not accept Islam ?

                                    After all you have just read. Why would the CLEAR MESSAGE of the verse need to be repeated.

                                    This way, they will have no choice, but to die or embrace Islam

                                    http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=9&tid=20750

                                    truth is often self evident

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #17.3 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:15 AM EST
                                    kpr37

                                    regarding the quranic verses that you gave...surely after your extensive research you would know the context of each and every verses that you quoted.

                                    I think every thing you requested can be found here at the tafsir of Sayyid Abul Ala Maududi

                                    http://www.searchtruth.com/tafsir/tafsir.php?chapter=9

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #17.4 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:26 AM EST
                                    kpr37

                                    Lastly did you meet Dr Tariq Ramadan ( a Swiss Muslim academic with a focus in Islamic Theology. He has been ranked by Prospect and Foreign Policy as the 8th most influential contemporary intellectuals in the world. He holds an MA in Philosophy and French literature and PhD in Arabic and Islamic Studies from the University of Geneva. In Cairo, he had training in classic Islamic scholarship at Al-Azhar University.)

                                    http://www.campus-watch.org/article/id/8174

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #17.5 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 5:33 AM EST
                                    Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                    Kpr 37, Elaine, and Socrates..Many thanks for your interventions in answering KRYON. Kpr37 you have answered just as, if not even better, than I would have answered myself regarding the questions that KRYON asked.

                                    Now KRYON, to complete the answers that you have been given, by other illustrious colleagues and friends on newsvine, my first suggestion is that you study well what Kpr37 had to say, as he answered you just as, if not even better than I would have, regarding the Suras you requested. Furthermore I also recommend that you follow Elaine's advice and read more of my articles:

                                    1) Religion, Suicide Bombers and Asymmetrical Warfare

                                    2) Radical Islam: Foundations and our Ignorance

                                    3) Betrayal of a Nation: Sharia Law in the UK

                                    Regarding the figure of Professor Ramadan, being myself a University Lecturer I cannot for professional and ethical reasons attack a colleague. Let's just say that his credentials regarding intellectual impartiality on the subject of Historical Islam are somewhat subjective due to his cultural and social background. His grandfather if I am not mistaken is Hassan al Bumma, founder of an organization called the Muslim Brotherhood, and there might, I am not saying there is, a correlation between his subjective views on Historical Islam and family influences.

                                    I would like, though, to examine the your statement that I have reported below with a little bit more attention:

                                    Are you talking about the society where men are liable to provide for their wives,mothers,daughters and sisters...while the woman even if she is a billionaire does not need to spend a dime on her family.Or that society where woman are treated and respected as mothers,daughters,sisters and not just some hot commodity selling her body in the name of woman's rights.

                                    It seems to me that the core message here is, somewhat an insult, to Western women. All women are mothers, sisters, wives, partners, lovers or friends, and that independently of religious affiliations. You cannot deny that Islam as a total disregard for women, and the Prophet Muhammad is certainly no example to follow when it comes to women's rights and self-determination. Afghanistan, Saudi Arabia, Iran, Pakistan are living examples of this primitive and unacceptable mysoginistic behaviour, and this is totally unacceptable. Just because women in our societies work, live an autonomous professional, and private life, and doesn't mean they are whores as you seem to suggest. Now I have checked your column, and seen what you write, and it seems to me that, though living in the USA, you seem not to accept the society and customs of where you live (I don't know you, so I cannot say whether or not you where born there or not), so my question to you is, why keep living in the US if you really don't feel at home there?

                                    Once you have read my articles you'll see that I provide ample references for my research, and if you want we can talk again at a later date. Regards.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #17.6 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:49 PM EST
                                    Goes

                                    Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                    I also wanted tho thank the same people you thanked for their efforts in clarifying things in this post.

                                    somewhat an insult,

                                    and doesn't mean they are whores as you seem to suggest.

                                    From his post, I got the very same message which you got.

                                    so I cannot say whether or not you where born there or not), so my question to you is, why keep living in the US if you really don't feel at home there?

                                    And this is what makes me wonder too. They despise the western societies, though they live in these same societies. They isolate themselves from these societies, and try to force their way of life there. Really want to know why, if it is anything other that one form of Jihad in the cause of Islam, and the world domination, as promised by Allah?

                                    • 2 votes
                                    #17.7 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:12 PM EST
                                    Kryon

                                    Thank you Dr. Riccardo for your reply

                                    I will start with the last of your comments.

                                    so my question to you is, why keep living in the US if you really don't feel at home there?

                                    Its been such a common statement from many anti Muslim personalities in Newsvine.And I know for sure that I am not the only one subjected to this.However you should take some thing into perspective while asking this question.That is,there are good things and bad things everywhere.For example I would love to live in Muslim country because the cultures and tradition would keep me away from certain bad influences.However some Muslim countries don't practice freedom of speech and have poor records of human rights so I would not love to live there.Unfortunately you have taken my criticism of western materialism as an indication that I hate the western world.Obviously which is untrue.And also you have taken western cultures as something thats unchangeable as well. With your vast experience in life you should know that people change,societies change and cultures change as well.Some degrade to filthy materialism,some follow spiritualism and some walk the middle line.However your call for those who criticize certain aspects of western materialism to leave the country doesn't really go down well with me if I were to assume that you are a supporter of human rights and free speech.

                                    Now regarding your article
                                    You discredited your understanding of Prophet Muhammad when you said

                                    He was a true "stay behind" leader has he kept well away from the wars he sent other to fight.

                                    when even many Islam hating person know that The prophet was injured during the battle of Uhud.Certainly I don't expect you to make mistakes with your knowledge and understanding of History.But even if you did...

                                    When someone like you who defeated the Tariq Ramadan(noted Islamic Scholar) in argument and yet do not know the history of the Prophet and make wild baseless accusations,I as a Muslim will not take it hands down and say 'thats all right'.
                                    Obviously you would know that at a time when fathers used to bury their daughters alive and the Christian world was considering whether woman are even human or not The prophet propagated his message of equality of sexes.he gave woman the right to property when she had none.Woman also acquired her right to divorce during his time.Your idea of woman in Muslim countries is that they are all subjugated.Unfortunately when America could not elect a woman president for 200 years,there are many Muslim woman prime ministers running their country.In Bangladesh alone with 90% Muslim population had two woman prime ministers for the last 20 years.Megawati Sukarnoputri was the President of the largest Muslim country in the world in terms of population.Regarding Saudi Arab,would you say Saudi Princes organizing filthy parties as Islamic or a Gay Saudi prince killing his servant as Islamic.Obviously not.So why give references to their cultures.heres my take on it just like organizing filthy obscene parties is not Islamic,repression of woman in those countries is also not Islamic.There are blacksheeps everywhere.Timothy McVeigh,Pastor Terry Jones,Bush are blacksheeps of America.Just like some radical fundamentalist,woman oppressors are blacksheeps of Islam.

                                    I am sorry if I have offended you in anyway.i have the utmost respect for teachers and I hope you understand my reaction to your article.Thanks

                                    @kpr

                                    And if anyone of the Mushrikin seeks your protection then grant him protection so that he may hear the Word of Allah (the Qur'an) and then escort him to where he can be secure, that is because they are men who know not.

                                    Is there anywhere in this passage written if they don't accept Islam then they will be killed?You have given references of People like Maududi whom even many muslims discredit for his radical interpretations of Islam.So if you give a choice of believing the Quran or Maududi...the answer would be quite rationally The Quran.

                                      #17.8 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:34 PM EST
                                      Socrates1

                                      But you see the unfortunate truth is contained in your statement.

                                      For example I would love to live in Muslim country because the cultures and tradition would keep me away from certain bad influences.However some Muslim countries don't practice freedom of speech and have poor records of human rights so I would not love to live there

                                      It is not uncommon to miss the connection...the things that "keep you away from certain bad influences" are the restrictions of freedom of speech and the poor record of human rights. There is no "perfect" Islamic civilization that you dream of in your mind....The very thing that you dislike about Islam is Islam.

                                      You also use the word "some", which particular Muslim country would not be included in that "some"?

                                        #17.9 - Sun Dec 12, 2010 3:17 AM EST
                                        Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                        KRYON. Thanks for your answer and let us discuss a few points that you mentioned.

                                        1) You discredited your understanding of Prophet Muhammad when you said..............

                                        No I did not! Though what you say is true, Muhammad was wounded at the Battle of Uhud, let's look at this under an historical "Microscope" shall we...... Preceded by the Battle of Badr in 624 AD; the Battle of Uhud took place on March 19, 625 AD (3 Shawwal 3H in the Islamic Calendar) at the valley located in front of Mount Uhud, in what would be today North West Arabia. It was the second major military encounter between the forces of Muhammad from Medina and the Meccan Army commanded by Abu Sufyan ibn Harb. During this particular military encounter, the Muslims had the advantage of controlling the high ground, and Muslim archers under the command of one of Muhammad's deputies, Talhah ibn Ubaydallah managed to stop the Meccan Cavalry from flanking the Muslim positions. Muslim infantry managed to hold and counter-attack in the center of the opposing army and the Meccan Army was nearly defeated, but because the way to Meccan camp was open, discipline broke and archers left their position to go and pillage the Meccan camp, and that's when the Meccan cavalry regroup and broke through the Muslim rear and during this acrion, Muhammad was wounded by a stone that hit him in the face. Now, he wasn't leading his men to battle, it was his deputies that fought not him. One can embellish a story, but once all the trimmings are taken away, then what remains are facts. Muhammad was in the centre of his ranks, and that stone could have come from anywhere. If you really want to know about one of the greatest Muslim military minds, then look at Saladin. Now that was a real warrior and one very great strategist.

                                        2).For example I would love to live in Muslim country because the cultures and tradition would keep me away from certain bad influences.However some Muslim countries don't practice freedom of speech and have poor records of human rights so I would not love to live there.Unfortunately you have taken my criticism of western materialism as an indication that I hate the western world.Obviously which is untrue.And also you have taken western cultures as something thats unchangeable as well.

                                        My good friend Socrates answered part of this, and I will not go through that again as he said exactly what I was going to say. I will say this though, as I assume that by "bad influences", you mean all the distractions available in our societies, "easy women, booze, and gambling", and and easier access to sex and other vices? These types of "temptations" if we can call them such, are present everywhere even in Muslim countries, and what it boils down too is really individual choices of lifestyle. People drink, take drugs, or whatever because they choose to do so, it's easy to blame society as whole, but is it honest to do so? We are after all responsible for our actions. I agree with you that we are excessively dependant on materialist technologies, and we are all losing our ability, especially the younger generations, to live healthier lives both morally and physically, and that we have overall in the world a lack of leadership that can stimulate humanity towards a betterment, but having said that, it is also true that betterment of one self is dependant on the individual itself.

                                        Regarding Muhammad equality legislation of the sexes I am sorry to disappoint you, but it has nothing to do with Muhammad, he actually applied the Codes of Hammurabi of Babylon, whose forward thinking and jurisprudence on women's rights can still be seen in modern Jurisprudence.

                                        3) The prophet propagated his message of equality of sexes.he gave woman the right to property when she had none.Woman also acquired her right to divorce during his time.

                                        Here let me give you some examples:

                                        130

                                        If a man violate the wife (betrothed or child-wife) of another man, who has never known a man, and still lives in her father's house, and sleep with her and be surprised, this man shall be put to death, but the wife is blameless.

                                        131

                                        If a man bring a charge against one's wife, but she is not surprised with another man, she must take an oath and then may return to her house.

                                        132

                                        If the "finger is pointed" at a man's wife about another man, but she is not caught sleeping with the other man, she shall jump into the river for her husband.

                                        133

                                        If a man is taken prisoner in war, and there is a sustenance in his house, but his wife leave house and court, and go to another house: because this wife did not keep her court, and went to another house, she shall be judicially condemned and thrown into the water.

                                        134

                                        If any one be captured in war and there is not sustenance in his house, if then his wife go to another house this woman shall be held blameless.

                                        135

                                        If a man be taken prisoner in war and there be no sustenance in his house and his wife go to another house and bear children; and if later her husband return and come to his home: then this wife shall return to her husband, but the children follow their father.

                                        136

                                        If any one leave his house, run away, and then his wife go to another house, if then he return, and wishes to take his wife back: because he fled from his home and ran away, the wife of this runaway shall not return to her husband.

                                        137

                                        If a man wish to separate from a woman who has borne him children, or from his wife who has borne him children: then he shall give that wife her dowry, and a part of the usufruct of field, garden, and property, so that she can rear her children. When she has brought up her children, a portion of all that is given to the children, equal as that of one son, shall be given to her. She may then marry the man of her heart.

                                        138

                                        If a man wishes to separate from his wife who has borne him no children, he shall give her the amount of her purchase money and the dowry which she brought from her father's house, and let her go.

                                        139

                                        If there was no purchase price he shall give her one mina of gold as a gift of release.

                                        140

                                        If he be a freed man he shall give her one-third of a mina of gold.

                                        141

                                        If a man's wife, who lives in his house, wishes to leave it, plunges into debt, tries to ruin her house, neglects her husband, and is judicially convicted: if her husband offer her release, she may go on her way, and he gives her nothing as a gift of release. If her husband does not wish to release her, and if he take another wife, she shall remain as servant in her husband's house.

                                        142

                                        If a woman quarrel with her husband, and say: "You are not congenial to me," the reasons for her prejudice must be presented. If she is guiltless, and there is no fault on her part, but he leaves and neglects her, then no guilt attaches to this woman, she shall take her dowry and go back to her father's house.

                                        143

                                        If she is not innocent, but leaves her husband, and ruins her house, neglecting her husband, this woman shall be cast into the water.

                                        144

                                        If a man take a wife and this woman give her husband a maid-servant, and she bear him children, but this man wishes to take another wife, this shall not be permitted to him; he shall not take a second wife.

                                        145

                                        If a man take a wife, and she bear him no children, and he intend to take another wife: if he take this second wife, and bring her into the house, this second wife shall not be allowed equality with his wife.

                                        146

                                        If a man take a wife and she give this man a maid-servant as wife and she bear him children, and then this maid assume equality with the wife: because she has borne him children her master shall not sell her for money, but he may keep her as a slave, reckoning her among the maid-servants.

                                        147

                                        If she have not borne him children, then her mistress may sell her for money.

                                        148

                                        If a man take a wife, and she be seized by disease, if he then desire to take a second wife he shall not put away his wife, who has been attacked by disease, but he shall keep her in the house which he has built and support her so long as she lives.

                                        149

                                        If this woman does not wish to remain in her husband's house, then he shall compensate her for the dowry that she brought with her from her father's house, and she may go.

                                        150

                                        If a man give his wife a field, garden, and house and a deed therefor, if then after the death of her husband the sons raise no claim, then the mother may bequeath all to one of her sons whom she prefers, and need leave nothing to his brothers.

                                        151

                                        If a woman who lived in a man's house made an agreement with her husband, that no creditor can arrest her, and has given a document therefor: if that man, before he married that woman, had a debt, the creditor can not hold the woman for it. But if the woman, before she entered the man's house, had contracted a debt, her creditor can not arrest her husband therefor.

                                        152

                                        If after the woman had entered the man's house, both contracted a debt, both must pay the merchant.

                                        153

                                        If the wife of one man on account of another man has their mates (her husband and the other man's wife) murdered, both of them shall be impaled.

                                        154

                                        If a man be guilty of incest with his daughter, he shall be driven from the place (exiled).

                                        155

                                        If a man betroth a girl to his son, and his son have intercourse with her, but he (the father) afterward defile her, and be surprised, then he shall be bound and cast into the water (drowned).

                                        156

                                        If a man betroth a girl to his son, but his son has not known her, and if then he defile her, he shall pay her half a gold mina, and compensate her for all that she brought out of her father's house. She may marry the man of her heart.

                                        157

                                        If any one be guilty of incest with his mother after his father, both shall be burned.

                                        Considering that time this Code of Law was written, it is one of the most remarkable legal documents of our history.

                                        I agree my friend that fanatics come in all denominations, and as such they have to be contested by men of reason. Contrary to what impresion you may have, I am not "a Muslim hater", neither am I agaisnt Muslims, I have friends of all denominations. We all live on a small planet, and it is time that mankind learnt to set aside differences, perceived truths and start thinking about learning to live with our differences in peace and harmony and try to think about the collective instead of the individual for a change. Look at this most recent event, a young Muslim man kills himself in Stockholm in the name of what? A mythical Jihad!!!! What a waste........he leaves a wife and three young children, and for what?????
                                        Now, if I you say this isn't the message of Islam, then its about time that people like you stood up and be counted.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #17.10 - Mon Dec 13, 2010 5:36 AM EST
                                        Kryon

                                        @Socrates1

                                        To make a statement, I have to say that one of the most important things that I am proud of is Islam and being a Muslim.The most peace I have in my life was when I pray.Now I can already understand that your understanding of freedom of speech and human rights is different than mine.If you are saying that "easy women, booze, and gambling", and and easier access to sex and other vices should also fall under the category of human rights and free speech than I have to disagree.Things that harm society and people should not be allowed.
                                        For example apart from giving employment to some socially deprived single woman does strip clubs benefit anyone else in the society?
                                        Does alchohol benefit the society as a whole?
                                        Does gambling benefit the society as a whole?

                                        The answer is no.If you are trying to say that there should be no limitaiton imposed on freedom of speech and actions of individuals I will disagree with that.A person should not have any right to hurl anti-semitic or rascist comments under the cover of freedom of speech.

                                        You are right in the sense that there is no perfect Islamic Civilization today.This is because a perfect Islamic society based on Quran and sunnah is like a stack of cards.Take out one card and its not a perfect society anymore.Even Saudi Arab with its strict form of wahabi Islam is not close to a perfect Islamic society.Thanks to the influences of western materialism.So what we are seeing in the muslim world are countries based on complete secular ideals like Turkey,countries with radical ideals like Saudi Arab and Iran,and countries making a compromise between the two ideals like Malaysia,Indonesia,Bangladesh etc.

                                        @Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                        1)

                                        Now, he wasn't leading his men to battle, it was his deputies that fought not him. One can embellish a story, but once all the trimmings are taken away, then what remains are facts. Muhammad was in the centre of his ranks, and that stone could have come from anywhere.

                                        Now I do not wish to question your sources so i would want to talk about the logic of your answer.Certainly you are not suggesting that that a 50+ year old man, a leader of a whole nation to fight a war by being right infront of his troops and ahead of incoming enemy.

                                        2)Now for arguements sake lets agree that Prophet Muhammad copied the ideas from Codes of Hammurabi of Babylon.Even so Doesn't that make him a better person than what you have portrayed?One common thing many quran critics say is "Copied".Ideas about big bang theory,atomic theory,orbit of the sun,embryology etc as copied from the greek scholars,Equality of sexes as copied from babylon,Ideas about the Past Prophets copied from the Bible and the Torah.As if Arabia of the middle ages was a hotbed of knowledgable Scholars who studied all those past refernces and choosed the good ones for the Quran. And as if Muhammad has copied all the good things from other sources while the violent parts are his own ingenuity.And I am pretty sure
                                        that many would say that,yes,thats exactly right.

                                        I agree my friend that fanatics come in all denominations, and as such they have to be contested by men of reason. Contrary to what impresion you may have, I am not "a Muslim hater", neither am I agaisnt Muslims, I have friends of all denominations. We all live on a small planet, and it is time that mankind learnt to set aside differences, perceived truths and start thinking about learning to live with our differences in peace and harmony and try to think about the collective instead of the individual for a change.

                                        I really appreciate your ideas on this.But I feel your article could have been much more unbiased if you had mentioned that Muhammad preached about equality of sexes and also if you had given refernce to Muhammad getting injured during battle of Uhud.

                                        Lastly the questions you asked about the recent event in Stockhome are quite similar to my questions as well.

                                        But Once a heard about this incident I considered a few things.Cause,effects and what he had personnally achieved.
                                        Lets see why out of all countries it was sweden.Is there any Swedish army currently operating in a Muslim country.I found the answer as yes,in Afghanistan.Is there any guarantee that Nato and hence sweden is only killing the terrorists and no innocent civilians(especially women and children) are getting killed by the drones.Answer is obviously NO.
                                        Then I considered the effects of his actions.Answer is further more persecutions of the Muslim community in Sweden and negative portrayal of Islam in the world.Lastly I considered his achievement.Well only thing he achieved was further sufferings of his family and his children who will always be considered as children of the terrorist.

                                        Now, if I you say this isn't the message of Islam, then its about time that people like you stood up and be counted.

                                        Well I for sure know that this isn't the message of Islam,never was and never will be.And its not just me,a majority of the Muslim population disagrees with the ideals of Al-qaeda and Talebans and many Islamic Scholars have also given fatwa against these terrorist acts.Unfortunately only way you can know about it is if you google it.even then you might not find the right materials.Especially when media like Fox news can genarate high ratings by showing a radical terrorist,who cares what a billion+ moderate muslim think and believes.

                                        • 1 vote
                                        #17.11 - Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:24 AM EST
                                        Kryon

                                        Sorry about the quotation errors.

                                          #17.12 - Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:31 AM EST
                                          Socrates1

                                          I have often heard Muslims speak as you do. It is unfortunate that you do not understand that with freedom comes the opportunity to make wrong choices and when one resricts to a high degree the ability for one to make those wrong choices then you necessarily have no freedom. That is the basic difference between a Christian Society and an Islamic one...There is no, and can be no, perfect Islamic Society....I'm not sure what you were attempting to point out with your examples of the various countries.

                                          The reason you do not wish to return to those Islamic Societies is because they are Islamic, the "perfect" Islamic society is only in your mind, which makes it all the more dangerous because so many continue to fight because they think that it can exist.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #17.13 - Tue Dec 14, 2010 1:35 AM EST
                                          PJ Stuart

                                          Kyron, Jesus was the ultimate feminist...don't give an opinion until you have studied His actions.

                                          The followers of Christianity are free to make their own idiotic and evil choices. So are those than claim Islam; or did you have anything to do with the events of 9/11?

                                          I have checked and double checked Dr. Ric's facts. They are facts. Believe me, he is no fan of the Christian God either, but he has his absolute right to choose what works for him and uses many good and factual arguments to back those ideas.

                                          I love it when people criticize the West, yet benefit greatly by all we provide, including your right to worship as you chose. I couldn't move the the Middle East and practice my faith, not for long anyway, I'd be stoned or beheaded or jailed or killed by some other barbaric practice. Islamic societies treat their women as chattel. They find themselves a victim of rape at the hands of a Muslim man, yet they are punished. The 'perfect Islamic society' would be hell on Earth for women. That isn't perfection, it is sexist, misogynistic, cruel and evil.

                                          You can defend until the end of time, but it will not change the facts.

                                          • 2 votes
                                          #17.14 - Tue Dec 14, 2010 9:24 AM EST
                                          Reply
                                          mstanley2265

                                          Men speak words to make their image of God more human. It cannot be accomplished

                                          • 1 vote
                                          Reply#18 - Thu Dec 9, 2010 9:20 PM EST
                                          Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                          Mstanley2265. Welcome to this Forum and what you say has a merit. It has always been a tendency in any religion to make the "God concept" as human as possible, and that basically to balance man's eternal insecurity about existential questions we have all been asking ourselves since time immemorial. Unless we see God or the Gods we will always be gravitating in the realms of supposition, as so far the existance of God or the Gods is not a fact, but a concept based on faith and nothing else.

                                            #18.1 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 1:10 PM EST
                                            mstanley2265

                                            When you strip away all the concepts, what is left is there is an existential substance. Humanity has named it God. So I'll go with that. My reasoning? There would be no Question, insecurity notwithstanding or on the other end just awe and wonder at the universe. If, big if, the Question of there being a/the/our God had not been asked. The sheer enormity of the thought, resulting in the Question is indicative of a process that had a trigger, so to speak. What that was or is would be pure speculation and has led to inventiveness on the part of religions and/or men.

                                            It has also led to divisiveness among cultures, races and neighbors. The story of the Tower of Babel illustrates this by assigning, to God, the use of power as a means of punishment for man's attempt to emulate/reach/be a... God. The one attempt did lead to no other man proclaiming himself God, instead they became a Son of God, a Messenger of God, God's Representative on Earth or a Prophet of God. Then all the words, all the trappings, all the wars and the vigilantes followed.

                                            There is no sane, rational or logical reason for all the religions of the world except to give individuals in their chosen religion a sense of community, a sense of faith, a sense of soul, and as you said with my additional word, to alleviate,.... insecurity. That is the goodness in a religion when the faith of the followers isn't abused and misused by more persuasive individuals as so many have been.

                                            It doesn't matter really were a religion began or how. What does matter is in each day, each time how that religion relates to the betterment of humanity as a whole and onward for the future.

                                              #18.2 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 2:44 PM EST
                                              Reply
                                              magz

                                              This article smells like religious bigotry.

                                              Welcome to Newsvine, Muslim haters.

                                                Reply#19 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 7:50 AM EST
                                                kpr37

                                                out for a morning troll are you ?

                                                nothing of value to add ?

                                                but could not stop yourself ?

                                                • 3 votes
                                                #19.1 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:04 AM EST
                                                Elaine-1503791

                                                Welcome to Newsvine, Muslim haters.

                                                Reported as inflammatory.

                                                • 1 vote
                                                #19.2 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 8:54 AM EST
                                                magz

                                                Well y'all could prove me wrong and state emphatically that y'all love Muslims.

                                                  #19.3 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:30 AM EST
                                                  magz

                                                  For instance, I love you Elaine and kpr, even though neither of you hold Muslims, shall we say, in any sort of regard.

                                                    #19.4 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 10:32 AM EST
                                                    Elaine-1503791

                                                    For instance, I love you Elaine and kpr,

                                                    If feels very strange to me when someone tells me they love me and I've never spoken to them in my life, nor have ever had any interaction on the Vine with them either.

                                                    even though neither of you hold Muslims, shall we say, in any sort of regard

                                                    Very opinionated of you, how would you know what I think of Muslims or anyone else? We've never had a conversation before.

                                                    This is how you express "love" for your fellow Viners?

                                                    This article smells like religious bigotry.

                                                    Welcome to Newsvine, Muslim haters.

                                                    • 2 votes
                                                    #19.5 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:07 AM EST
                                                    Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                                    MAGZ. Thank you for your comment, though it would be more challanging if you could explain yourself a bit more, considering that as an historian I really have no personal hate for Islam, or any other religion, I tend to deal in facts.

                                                    I am afraid that the statement: Islam is a Religion of Peace, isn't supported by facts. So I suggest that you read the Qur'an., and make up your own mind. There is no "Muslim bashing" here, there are series of fact about Islam, but if you look at other articles I have wrote, you'll find that I am just as critical of Christianity or Judaism.

                                                    Feel free to bring any constructive intellectual contributions to this debate. Regards.

                                                    • 2 votes
                                                    #19.6 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 12:57 PM EST
                                                    anobody

                                                    didn't Obama just say he is muslamy?

                                                      #19.7 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 3:05 PM EST
                                                      magz

                                                      By the responses to my post, my point is very nice illustrated.

                                                      Y'all have a nice day.

                                                      De-tracking.

                                                        #19.8 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 4:03 PM EST
                                                        Socrates1

                                                        And somewhere in there we find the perfect example of rational debate?

                                                        • 1 vote
                                                        #19.9 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:15 PM EST
                                                        Reply
                                                        mstanley2265

                                                        magz isn't a troll, he just looks at things a bit different.

                                                          Reply#20 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 9:31 AM EST
                                                          Socrates1

                                                          I couldn't tell...all I saw was evidence of an emotional response and/or opinion and no attempt to back that up with anything close to evidence.

                                                          Sorry.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #20.1 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:18 PM EST
                                                          Reply
                                                          mstanley2265

                                                          that's magz for you, if anyone puts up something he perceives as derogatory about something, I figure he'll be around to say it's derogatory, in as few words as possible. He doesn't really debate, he's a Poet. In Poe's time people didn't really understand him either. :)

                                                            Reply#21 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:21 PM EST
                                                            Elaine-1503791

                                                            With all due respect to you mstanley, someone calling an entire group of fellow Viners haters is odd behavior for a 'poet', and this article isn't about hating. It's a conversation among intelligent people discussing the religion of Islam. I doubt your friend read a single word and the rash decision to throw out an insult and then take off when asked to explain is less than admirable. In fact, I've seen that behavior described on NV as grenade trolling.

                                                            • 3 votes
                                                            #21.1 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:43 PM EST
                                                            mstanley2265

                                                            It's not odd behavior for a Poet. I could read the article two ways also. One that it is of some historical value and the other that the article was "cherry picking" the worst aspects of the basis of Islam. The latter being of more a "hate" type article. I don't know if he read the 'whole' article or not. The choice of the first sentence by the author:" Defending Muhammad as a Prophet of God is basically impossible" sets the stage for the rest of the article.

                                                            When you view it this way, then you should be able to understand that there are people in this world who will also view this article as a "hate" article. Being objective is not always possible. It is a goal to be achieved in understanding other people's views. That is also why it is imperative to bring not just a narrow view of a subject but the wider view of the subject when writing an article.

                                                            magz is succint in his judgements, but never the less, very close to the bull's eye so to speak when you read this as a 'hostile' article. I didn't perceive his comment as an insult, more as a voting for this article was condoning the "narrow" view.

                                                              #21.2 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:13 AM EST
                                                              Socrates1

                                                              Is there something you would care to refute? That's normally the way things go in a discussion....Someone presents a perspective based on the facts as he/she sees them...perhaps someone else disagrees and presents an opposing view....see how that works? One or two meaningless phrases do not a poet make, nor do they set the stage for meaningful discourse....For example if I said....Poop stinks....would that also be a "hate" article?

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #21.3 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:01 AM EST
                                                              Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                                              The choice of the first sentence by the author:" Defending Muhammad as a Prophet of God is basically impossible" sets the stage for the rest of the article. MSSTANLEY 2265

                                                              There is one that History doesn't allow is its adaptation to suite individual moods. Unfortunately facts are facts. From an historical contest, and by studying the life of Muhammad, my statement isn't a setting of a stage to attack Islam, it is a brutal fact that describes the founder of this religion. If I would be writing an article on Richard III, King of England and open with the statement, that he was a murdering psycho, there would little to contest, as anyone who selects 150 Muslim pregnant women and slashes their bellies open in front of the walls of Jerusalem and squashes the featuses with his feet to "put the fear of the Righteous Lord in their infedel bones", is a psycho! Simple fact!

                                                              People may, or may not agree with what I write, but as Socrates points that's the whole object of a frank and open discussion.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #21.4 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 6:46 AM EST
                                                              mstanley2265

                                                              To be even more specific, people Could View this article as a 'hate' article. When you present to an audience, it is necessary for a discussion to began not with a set view but with both views. No One historical figure can be condemned outright as the worst. They all had help in their reign over the community. Their influence/legacy is often left out of history or only assigned a minor role. As if one person could have that much influence, even back in that era, over a huge, scattered number of people. There should always be some perspective maintained in a discussion.

                                                              A History of one person is never about just that one person, the facts always spiral outward or from the bottom upwards. Even then propaganda was prevelant.

                                                              Historical 'facts' are often lost in the translation and/or over time. It is extremely difficult for a scholar to state as fact when much could be hearsay, an enemies 'take' on events or just outright gibberish.

                                                              The inclusion, that the military campaigns were not just set as an example of his warlike ways, but should also be noted that this was in the historical era ie the Romans were still there, would have been a better presentation. Consolidation of communities and people were more often of a military venture than a peaceful venture in that era. Whether by Islam, Christians, Hebrews, Romans and Hindi and by whichever 'reason' that was chosen for the military incursion.

                                                              That said, I repeat "the goodness in a religion is when the faith of the followers isn't abused and misused by more persuasive individuals as so many have been."

                                                                #21.5 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 11:08 AM EST
                                                                Socrates1

                                                                mstanley..What is it you care to refute?

                                                                Dr...You realize that Richard III wasn't the "murdering psycho" that so many believe he was?

                                                                  #21.6 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 2:46 PM EST
                                                                  Reply
                                                                  Neron Kesar

                                                                  The first surah (chapter) in the Qur'an is a summary of all the fundamental principles in the religion of Islam:

                                                                  . . . the principle of God's oneness and uniqueness, of His being the originator and fosterer of the universe, the fount of all life-giving grace, the One to whom man is ultimately responsible, the only power that can really guide and help; the call to righteous action in the life of this world ("guide us the straight way"); the principle of life after death and of the organic consequences of man's actions and behaviour (expressed in the term "Day of Judgment"); the principle of guidance through God's message-bearers (evident in the reference to "those upon whom God has bestowed His blessings") and, flowing from it, the principle of the continuity of all true religions (implied in the allusion to people who have lived - and erred - in the past); and, finally, the need for voluntary self-surrender to the will of the Supreme Being and, thus, for worshipping Him alone. It is for this reason that this surah has been formulated as a prayer, to be constantly repeated and reflected upon by the believer.

                                                                  --"The Message of The Quran, Translated and Explained" by Muhammad Assad

                                                                  • 2 votes
                                                                  Reply#22 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:22 PM EST
                                                                  kpr37

                                                                  and, flowing from it, the principle of the continuity of all true religions

                                                                  that definition is very slim (anorexic ) in Islamic theology.

                                                                  you do know that,don't you ?

                                                                    #22.1 - Fri Dec 10, 2010 11:59 PM EST
                                                                    Neron Kesar

                                                                    Feel welcome to expand upon your assertion.

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #22.2 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:11 AM EST
                                                                    kpr37

                                                                    Allah's statement:

                                                                    [وَيَكُونَ الدِّينُ للَّهِ]

                                                                    (...and the religion (all and every kind of worship) is for Allah (Alone).) means,

                                                                    `So that the religion of Allah becomes dominant above all other religions.'

                                                                    It is reported in the Two Sahihs that Abu Musa Al-Ash`ari said: "The Prophet was asked, `O Allah's Messenger! A man fights out of bravery, and another fights to show off, which of them fights in the cause of Allah' The Prophet said:

                                                                    «مَنْ قَاتَلَ لِتَكُونَ كَلِمَةُ اللهِ هِيَ الْعُلْيا فَهُوَ فِي سَبِيلِ الله»

                                                                    (He who fights so that Allah's Word is superior, then he fights in Allah's cause.) In addition, it is reported in the Two Sahihs:

                                                                    «أُمِرْتُ أَنْ أُقَاتِلَ النَّاسَ حَتَّى يَقُولُوا لَا إِلهَ إلَّا اللهُ، فَإِذَا قَالُوهَا عَصَمُوا مِنِّي دِمَاءَهُم وَأَمْوَالَهُمْ إلَّا بِحَقِّهَا وَحِسَابُهُمْ عَلَى الله»

                                                                    (I have been ordered (by Allah) to fight the people until they proclaim,

                                                                    `None has the right to be worshipped but Allah'.

                                                                    as a monotheistic pagan, where does that leave me ?

                                                                    Whoever said it, then he will save his life and property from me,

                                                                    see verse of the sword

                                                                    except for cases of the law, and their account will be with Allah.)

                                                                    http://www.tafsir.com/default.asp?sid=2&tid=5035

                                                                      #22.3 - Sat Dec 11, 2010 12:48 AM EST
                                                                      Reply
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