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DR. RICCARDO PRIVITERA

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RELIGION: THE HARBINGER OF CHILD ABUSE

Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:11 AM EDT
religion, crime, god, society, jesus, hypocrisy, catholic-church, trauma, separation-of-church-and-state, indoctrination, brain-washing, sexual-child-abuse, christian-fundamentalisms, secularisms
By Dr. Riccardo Privitera

The suffering mythology that covers a multitude of atrocities committed by Religion

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PROSELITIZATION OF RELIGION: A RECEPY FOR CHILD ABUSE, TORTURE, RAPE AND GENOCIDE.

Two things led me to write this article, one is a case at the Old Bailey, the oldest Crown Court in London, where I had the pleasure of seeing convicted to 25 years the father and mother of my friend, Miss.M. Miss M. Is a 39 year old woman, who went through a gruelling childhood where she was routinely sexually abused by the father, a New Born Christian and the abuse took place with the knowledge and the help of the mother. Their defence was a string of bible quotes that in their view not only justified such behaviour, but it was sanctioned by God. The other was a recent article I have been following on Newsvine, ‘God hates Morons’.

What comes as apparent from such a case, that during the numerous court hearing one had to control not only one’s temper, but also the overwhelming feeling of nausea that such people generate, is that the sexualisation of children is institutionalized in Judaism, Christianity and Islam. Jehovah impregnated a 12 year old girl named Mary at her Batmitzva, and that Christians dare call this Immaculate Conception. Paedophiles (who go Church on Sunday and scream Jesus at the top of their lungs) consider this a good thing. I assert that under English Law, or under any law in the Western World Jehovah should be tried and convicted as a sex offender. The worship of such a pervert should be prohibited as it is quite obviously the root of a culture of child sex abuse, rape, torture, and ultimately Genocide (the latter will be subject of another essay) that sees one in four children in the Western World victims of such practices.

The Bible, the Thora and the Qur’an encourage a casual lack of regard for the right of the child from the outset. Common stories in the three books, like the story of Jehovah approaching Abraham of the desert tribe of the Habiru with an ultimatum “Abraham” he said “Take your little boy to the top of the mountain and slice his throat, do this and your descendants will out-number the grains of sand on the beach.” Abraham showed Jehovah that like the desert from he came, he too was barren, empty and gutless, and in fact clearly showed Jehovah that he was more than willing to sacrifice his own son to a voice. Such a man is worthless, not only he doesn’t care for his own son, but he is more than willing to kill him in the name of his paramount worship to Jehovah.

Extreme violence against children is quite obviously overtly or subconsciously encouraged by the Judeo-Christian religious tradition and dogma all over the world. Solomon, it is alleged, when two women were claiming to be mothers of the same child ruled that the child be divided in half and each should take a piece. Once again we are confronted with a casual disregard for the child. Christians love to celebrate Christmas, as the birth of Jesus Christ, son of Jehovah and yet conveniently choose to ignore that according to their own dogmas, the birth of their Saviour was preceded by a brutal act of infanticide committed by King Herod.

Christianity has an Ace of Hearts in respect to Judaism or Islam in that Christians are taught to practice forgiveness. That makes the whole scenario even more unbearable as it allows paedophiles to get away with almost total impunity.

There is considerable theological, academic, legal, and anecdotal material written about Christianity and Abuse. There is little, though that focuses on the victim’s perspective and subjective experience. To understand that one has to understand how Christian theological teachings impact on the psyche of the child that is being sexually or physically abused and their effects once the child becomes an adult; in this respect they are truly insidious. The following themes constitute the basis of the Christian Dogma:

  • The value of Suffering and self-sacrifice (which is necessary for salvation).
  • The value placed on obedience to authority figures: male God, male ‘Headship’, female submission, Honour your Father and Mother, etc.
  • The necessity of remaining sexually pure: no sex before marriage
  • The virtue of forgiveness and repentance.
  • God will protect you
  • Suffering and self-sacrifice is necessary for salvation.

‘Jesus died on the Cross to save us’ is the lynchpin of the whole Christian indoctrination process. Jesus suffering was redemptive therefore ours will be. This are three very insidious messages here that play in the subconscious of Christian Believers:

  • We should not therefore reject suffering; indeed in fact we should suffer.
  • Suffering is good.
  • To be of value we should sacrifice ourselves.

These beliefs inculcated in children since birth shape their acceptance to abuse, and are in a perverse way, a form of abuse in themselves, as children have no defence against the imposition of such beliefs by their parents.

The central image of Christ on the Cross as a saviour of the world communicates unequivocally that suffering is redemptive. If the “best person that ever lived” gave his life for others, then to be of value we should likewise sacrifice ourselves. Any sense that we have a right to cater for our own needs is in conflict with being a faithful follower of Jesus. Furthermore this insidious doctrine sais: ‘every theory of atonement commands the suffering of the disciple’. For the Christian, and more so for the extreme right wing New Born Christian the goal is to be like Jesus – such an identification with the figure of Christ manifests first and foremost as an obedient willingness to endure pain.

It is not uncommon to find survivors of sexual and violent abusive behaviour believing that they have no rights to protection – that what they suffered as children or adolescents is somehow good not bad. Carrying one’s Cross is how the abuse is justified throughout childhood. Christian child and adult survivors of sexual and violent abuse make excellent victims, dying (suffering) so others might live, and believing that this is what a good Christian ought to do. The brainwashing is so pervasive and insidious as children that they will continue to believe this as adults, and such beliefs comes from the Christian message to serve, to obey and to suffer as all in the end lead to salvation and redemption. A message common to all Religions, as in reality Religion isn’t about faith it’s about control.

This glorification of suffering encourages victims who are being abused to be more concerned about their victimizers than about themselves. This is evident in child abuse where children try to protect their, usually, male abusers; in domestic violence where women feel guilty about reporting their abusers, in clergy related cases, like the recent scandals in the Catholic Church, or the many ongoing cases of abuse, rape and murder committed by Evangelical New Born Christians, and Catholic missionaries in Africa, and Latin America that have come recently to light. Here too it is common to see that male, women or children victims of abuse will do anything to protect the priests and the respective Churches and so on.

Serving others before self is a concept that is indoctrinated and stamped in the subconscious of children that are born to practicing religious households from the outset. The very act of Baptism committed on the child in Catholic/Christian households or the circumcision of the male Jewish or Muslim child is in effect the very first form of child abuse. Females in these households are taught to obey and serve the males around them.

“Jesus then rose from death triumphant, victorious”. The allegory of the Christian common view that response to suffering should be patience as by being patient something good will come of it. The whole concept of Christian suffering, of the suffering of Jesus to be more precise, is that it has a ‘purpose’. What is that ‘purpose’, well aside from a series of meaningless quotes from the Bible no Christian can really tell.

Any rational human being with a minimum of intellect cannot accept such views. Victimization never leads to triumph. It can lead to extended pain and extensive mental imbalance if it not fought or refused. It will lead almost inevitably to the destruction of the human spirit through the death of the person’s sense of power and self-worth, dignity, creativity, and self-assurance. It can lead to death through depression and suicide.

Many Christians victim of abuse, and Miss M was no exception, believed they had to suffer. Some were unclear as to why, but that overall that what they suffered seemed the right thing, as they were ‘bad’, within the contest of their respective families faith. If you are ‘bad’ then suffering is an understandable repercussion! This feeling of ‘badness’ came from being abused; but in the Christian woman/child this is felt as sin. Being abused means that you are ‘bad’, therefore ‘bad’ girls and boys are sinners – bad and sinners often meaning the same thing.

Another Christian victim of abuse, a woman, said: ‘it has always been my firm conviction that you are not born sinful, but that someone had to plant the seed of sin deep inside you’. Evidently the reference to the sexual violation is clear. This belief in Christian indoctrinated women and men victims of sexual abuse as children is far more common than one imagines, and the whole thing is further compounded, especially in women, by the patriarchal beliefs that girls and women are “naturally sinful” by nature, inheriting the myth of Eve who tempted Adam in the Garden of Eden. In fact it is a common misnomer uttered by members of Christian Fundamentalists Churches, and also a theological assumption in main stream churches, Catholics, Protestant, Anglican, etc; that women or girls are the main cause of their own abuse. A theology that doesn’t quite make sense, especially in the light of the many abuses that have come to light in the Catholic Church, since many boys are sexually raped and abused. It does ‘fit’ if one sees, by the study of individual case files how the abused boys feel emasculated following the abuse. The sense of personal guilt and shame of the abused, whether male or female, makes it so that victims pray to God to to purify themselves from their essential sinfulness and actually give thanks to the abuser for having brought on them the rightful chastisement of God, in this case the sexual act in itself, to show how inherently sinful they are.

Furthermore, as Christian children are taught that Jesus did not complain about his suffering, indeed he acquiesced, neither should they, as this is the right and Christian thing to do. This insidious form of indoctrination consequentially brings on the concept of the identification by the victim of Christ’s suffering and that will inevitably numb any willingness to confront violence and abuse.

Paradoxically the acceptance of suffering could well save the life of the victim, and here Christian Theology safeguards as well as numbs. It is Un-Christian to complain, and this translates as un-Christian to report the abuse or violence to Professionals or anyone outside the family or the clan. This is evident in the response of both families and Christian communities when a victim does report. It is seen as un-Christian, disloyal, a betrayal and wrong not right! In one Church in Birmingham, victims were spat on and insulted by the rest of the Congregation for reporting the priest of sexually abusing them. Victims of abuse have stated in police reports that their Pastor told them not to report, as it says in the Bible that if you have anything against your brother it should be dealt within the community – you must not go to court or the police, meaning the secular agencies. Neither must you seek therapy, since God and prayer will heal you. These arguments are extremely strong within the fundamentalist Evangelical, Pentecostal, Baptist Fellowships or House Churches.

Did the Christian God make sacred suffering? Does he sanction child abuse by allowing ‘his’ son to be killed on the Cross? A worrisome number of victims of sexual and violent child abuse within the Christian communities actually believe this to be so, ‘If he didn’t save Jesus he’s not going to save me.’

There is a strong Christian (Judaism and Islam as well) message that the adult is not to be questioned; Honour thy Father and Mother. Now in a normal family that wouldn’t be a problem, however in a discordant family such indoctrination stifles the ability of the child to challenge, question, or report their abuse experience. Suffering being already a ‘Christian virtue’ is then compounded by the silence of the victim. The whole foundation of this attitude to authority, which the Church has developed since the fall of the Roman Empire, has been established in the anthropomorphic concept of the Christian deity being a male and in the consequent human relationship with God.

In Christian (Jewish or Islamic) theology the honouring of both mother and father, in reality concentrates on the father, deemed the head of the household and in most cases of abuse, the abuser. The mother must obey the father. This special role is a direct result of the belief that God is male. For most victims of abuse this image is horrific: “I was taught that God was my father in Heaven and that my Father was God on Earth.” Miss. M during her cross-examination at trial.

One doesn’t need to be a psychiatrist to understand that victims of child abuse from religious households come to perceive God as the abuser – Just like her/his father. These are not rational or articulated thoughts by the victims but rather subliminal messages absorbed over time in a Christian home, particularly in the more fundamentalist and therefore ignorant and bigoted Christian homes where the headship of the male is paramount.

A male God teaches female children that males are superior to females, that they are more God-like than women. Male children are taught this legacy from the outset. For male victims of abuse this is compounded by the thought that they are somehow like a ‘female’ in being a victim, and therefore not powerful or God-like; the fact that Jesus was a victim doesn’t help either gender in reality. The trauma is a lifelong experience.

Catholic children and adult survivors of abuse have had to deal with the additional misogyny where the headship of the male is taken much further. In the Catholic Church (the largest Christian fellowship on the planet), only males can be priests, meaning that the male body (not the mind) is a true reflection of God and that only the man/God can inseminate (with a spiritual penis) Christianity into the faithful. Within Catholic Christianity it isn’t difficult to believe, given this premise, that Mass for some (and I wish to emphasise SOME!) is essentially a sexual act. To my horror, I discovered this reading an article in a Catholic newspaper (l’Osservatore Romano, November 5th, 1995). The author, who doesn’t identify himself, but is definitely a Catholic priest, wants to clarify why women cannot be priest. He says, “in Christ, God penetrates the world to seed a new creation – his bride, the Church. During the Mass the (male) priest allows Christ to use him, to ‘penetrate’ his creation (the congregation) once more – nourishing his bride with his own flesh and blood. The metaphor in such a statement is nightmarish.

This in female victims translates in:

  • Fear of God who, with a penis has the potential to abuse them also.
  • Fear of priests who just like their male abusers (if not the abuser themselves) have the potential to abuse them. They don’t trust other women who are really misbegotten males (St.Augustine). Fear of speaking to mother of the abuse, especially when the mother is helping in the abuse, either by ignoring it, or by justifying it.
  • The beliefs that only men have the skills to help them, since they are ‘man/God’ figures and yet because of that they too can’t be trusted.
  • Developing a sense of endless guilt, a feeling of self-rejection as they feel that they got what they deserve because of the natural sinfulness of the woman.

While in male victims this translates in:

  • A profound crisis of identity as they cannot see themselves as man/God, as they like women are victims. A profound feeling of inferiority and almost non-existent self esteem.
  • A complete lack of trust in women as they are inferior and don’t have the physical attributes (penis) of the man/God.
  • A lack of trust in the man/God figure as they see in it the abuser.
  • A feeling of sexual inadequacy with women, as they feel their man/God masculinity taken away from them, and a feeling of self hate as they feel responsible for being so weak and sinful that God has punished them for their inherent unworthiness to have taken his shape as man/God.
  • Furthermore the hidden trauma that the abuse of males is in most cases an homosexual act, that further compounds that feeling of self-guilt as that is a sin in itself.

One of the most controlling aspects of Christian indoctrination surrounds the issue of purity and all that it entails. The shame of sexual violation is pervasive in both male and females. Shame is linked with self-blame. Girls are brought up to keep their virginity intact, while boys are taught to be strong therefore both feel guilty for ‘allowing’ their respective violation.

The suffering that follows the rape is not just physical but spiritual and metaphysical. The importance placed on virginity by Christian doctrine makes women especially vulnerable after such an event. ‘Dirty and sinful’ is a common feeling among victims, and their confusion is deep.

However, of all the Christian doctrines the most insidious is the ‘concept of forgiveness’. There is no discussion, one must forgive! As it is promulgated this forgiveness has to be ‘unconditional’. One has to forgive no matter what. Though this doctrine of Christian forgiveness isn’t exactly black or white, as if one reads with attention their book, the Bible (In my opinion one of the most mentally damaging books in history), one finds in Luke: 1-3 a passage that actually sais: “if your brother does something wrong, reprove him, and if he is sorry (or repents, in some translations) forgive him”. Nevertheless, accepted Christian theology tends to ignore this and goes for unconditional forgiveness. Christian children and adults are taught (erroneously) to forgive without repentance from their transgressors, and if they cannot they become the sinners. Once a child or adult sais that he/she has been abused the peer pressure is applied to forget and forgive. Why?

Two main reasons can be identified:

1) The person who firstly hears the plight of the victim, in most cases a close relative, simply doesn’t want to hear such a thing because it is too horrible to acknowledge, brings to the surface a feeling of personal responsibility, and puts into question the very dogmas of the faith.

2) The Churches and their representatives simply deny at first, and then if the abuser is a priest or a pastor close ranks, create a wall of silence, and begin to focus in a negative way on the victim.

So what we see is the Church, the family, the friends, the clan all ganging up on the victim, leaving her/he alone to cope with the trauma, the self-guilt and all consequences of the abuse. Therefore Sexual abuse becomes a social collective exercise in hypocrisy!

What the victims are left to cope with can be summed up as follows:

1) Human Experience

Mum will punish me, Dad will punish me

FEAR

Spiritual Experience

I will go to hell, Even God hates me

2) Human Experience

I’ll never trust men/women again

TRUST

Spiritual Experience

I can’t trust God – He’ll let me down too

3) Human Experience

Why is this happening to me? Why me?

ANGER

Spiritual Experience

Where is God? Why doesn’t he stop it? He has the power to stop it!

4) Human Experience

My abuser is stronger than me

POWER

Spiritual Experience

God is bigger – Divine – greater than me. He has control over my life, can do anything he wants with/to me. He is God!

5) Human Experience

Everyone thinks it was my fault. I am dirty, horrible!

STIGMA

Spiritual Experience

I have sinned sexually – I must go to confession

6) Human Experience

I allowed this to happen, I temped him/her.

GUILT

Spiritual Experience

I feel anger, bitterness, hatred, I can’t forgive. I am the temptress, I am the sinner.

7) Human Experience

They all think I am mad, that I am liar!

SELF-INJURY

Spiritual Experience

The ‘ultimate sin’! Now I will burn in hell.

The above shows how feelings permeate both realms and make for a cocktail of trauma that is not seen in secular survivors of sexual child abuse.

As Jennifer Manlowe says, ‘religious language which promotes sacred victims such as Jesus Christ, promotes the concept of a sole male authority in the home, confuses the issues of Church vs. State is an extremely dangerous discourse because it spiritualizes political and social passivity’. A passivity that all religions need, in greater or smaller extents to exercise their social and political control over the masses.

To quote an infamous Christian: “The masses of the people will more easily fall to a big lie than to a small one”. Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf.

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Dr. Riccardo Privitera

Religion is what keeps the poor man from murdering the rich

Religion is excellent stuff to keep the common people quite

NAPOLEON BONAPARTE

Two excellent quotes and two excellent truths! I would like to complete them with my own:

It doesn't require a great intellect, actually it requires no intellect at all being religious. All it takes is a simple heart and a willingness to obey a God whatever the order given!

  • 8 votes
Reply#1 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 10:17 AM EDT
ROBBY therobotDeleted
gotme!!

They should put Witch in front of your name . What a twisted concept of Religion .

    Reply#3 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:23 AM EDT
    ROBBY therobotDeleted
    newsblog903

    RELIGION IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL!

    • 6 votes
    #3.2 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 1:20 PM EDT
    NYPeach

    "as long as you continue to buy into MYTH and SUPERSTITION, you will NEVER be "free"

    Being free means choosing what is right for YOU. Should you believe in God...that is your right. Should you not believe in God....that is your right as well. That is "FREEDOM"!

    • 1 vote
    #3.3 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:13 PM EDT
    NYPeach

    "RELIGION IS THE ROOT OF ALL EVIL"

    I disagree....one does not have to be religious to be evil. The act of trying to convince people that religion is evil is in itself evil. Prayers and faith have gotten me through some rough times and I will never turn my back on my faith. So go ahead and mock me and those who continue to practice their religion....it will never lesson or question my faith.

      #3.4 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:24 PM EDT
      NYPeach

      And by the way....I will never push my religious beliefs on anyone. Faith in God must come to those on there own terms. I certainly never liked anyone pushing their beliefs on me....my faith in God came to me in my own time. After recently losing an uncle who died from lung and liver cancer, sitting there in the hospital and holding his hand while he slowly lost his fight against cancer, gave me peace because in my heart I knew he would be joining those who went before him and would be welcoming him with open hearts.

      To honor his memory, I will do everything in my power to watch over the son he left behind.

        #3.5 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:43 PM EDT
        Dr. Riccardo Privitera

        NYPEACH, thanks for your comments and intervention. No one is attacking your faith and I agree with you that people should believe whatever they want. The article is based though on a real legal case. A case that because of my friendship to the victim and to her husband and also has her legal counsel impacted on me deeply, and showed me the aberrations on the human psyche of blind unquestioned faith in the religious myth.

        • 2 votes
        #3.6 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:58 PM EDT
        Dr. Riccardo Privitera

        Hello Newsblog my good friend, I have to agree with you that Religion is one of the roots of all evil, the others being ignorance, superstition, and hypocrisy.

        • 2 votes
        #3.7 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:02 PM EDT
        Grisham

        Hello Newsblog my good friend, I have to agree with you that Religion is one of the roots of all evil, the others being ignorance, superstition, and hypocrisy.

        And greed. It's the root of all evil.

          #3.8 - Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:08 AM EDT
          Reply
          King Dave

          Great article Dr. Privitera. I was wondering where you have been. It gets depressing because religious criticism, that should be so obvious to any thinking person with the slightest concept of right and wrong, but often seems to fall on deaf ears. So I appreciate your great work. Thanks.

          It is also clear, these Holy Books are exclusively "Man" made, because they are completely silent when it comes to crimes against children. And loud and clear about what is ordered to be done to women and children by this God. Absolutely appalling.

          Moses, Eleazar the priest, and all the leaders of the people went to meet them outside the camp. But Moses was furious with all the military commanders who had returned from the battle. "Why have you let all the women live?" he demanded. "These are the very ones who followed Balaam's advice and caused the people of Israel to rebel against the LORD at Mount Peor. They are the ones who caused the plague to strike the LORD's people. Now kill all the boys and all the women who have slept with a man. Only the young girls who are virgins may live; you may keep them for yourselves.(Numbers 31:7-18) Clearly Moses and God approves of rape of virgins.

          Jesus criticizes the Jews for not killing their disobedient children according to Old Testament law. Mark.7:9-13 "Whoever curses father or mother shall die" (Mark 7:10)

          Some hope:

          "I distrust those people who know so well what God wants them to do because I notice it always coincides with their own desires." – Susan B. Anthony

          "It will yet be the proud boast of women that they never contributed a line to the Bible." – George W. Foote

          • 3 votes
          Reply#4 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:26 AM EDT
          Dr. Riccardo Privitera

          King Dave always a pleasure to hear from you and I am glad that you liked the article. That little bit about Moses is spot on, and it proves he was no choir boy. Some moral high-ground! This perhaps you'll find of interest, as it relates to some statements my friend Miss. M made at the trial, which I believe give a present validation to Numbers 31. 7.18:

          People in the Church don't want to know, they blame me!

          I couldn't even trust God not to hurt me.

          I figured God couldn't love me, but why? I was going to hell no matter what I did, so it didn't matter whether I lived or died.

          Father for me is the most frightening name for God I can think of.

          I though the devil had got me, but my mother told me that Father was performing God's will.

          My mother told me that I was evil, and that Father was trying to purify me, and that I should pray and give thanks to God.

          I felt that the evil in me had caused the abuse, and that my father was trying to purify me as only good boys and girls are allowed in the Church to be loved by God, and yet I felt unclean, dirty.

          I knew that I had committed a terrible sin, I don't know what, but that I was evil, and that unless I accepted the purification I was going to go to hell.

          Everyday I prayed to God with my mother and promised to be a good girl, so that God would stop the purification, so that my father would stop.

          Well my friend I could go on, but it's too nauseous! Especially when you think that Miss M. was sexually abused by the parents from the age of 4 to 12. This has truly been one of the worst cases I had to sit through in my life, and has reduced my tolerance for Bible pushers and religious maniacs to zero.

          • 3 votes
          #4.1 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:26 PM EDT
          thiscantbe

          That is so sad. I think any religion that makes it so that young children are "sinners" is not a religion I would ever want to follow. Children are innocent, they don't need to be "purified."

          This family was full of sick adults who did nothing to protect the innocent child they should have treated like a precious joy.

          When has sex ever been seen as purifying? Sex is messy, I don't see how sex could clean a persons soul, expecially that of a child, your own child! *Shakes head* so sick.

          • 1 vote
          #4.2 - Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:55 AM EDT
          Dr. Riccardo Privitera

          Thiscantbe, welcome and thank you for your comments on this Forum. Yes, it is sick and no matter how much I try I cannot express the utter sense of disgust I felt in seeing the defendants trying to justify their actions quoting from a Bible, and members of their family and friends all belonging to same Church testifying in their favor, almost justifying what was done to the plaintiff, as a Divine Act, and laying the blame on the immorality of secular society. Very sickening indeed.

          • 1 vote
          #4.3 - Mon Mar 14, 2011 3:56 AM EDT
          Future History

          Hello Dr. - great article about a depressing topic. So many times I have entered debate with the faithful that refuse to entertain discussion on this subject, because it is "not representative" of the vast majority of Christians. While that may be, there is certainly a connection and plenty of written history that needs to be considered when one embraces this religion. My question: was there any evidence that the father of Miss M. had similar treatment as a child, and that it was carrying forward in the same manner that secular victims of abuse go on to abuse their own children?

          • 1 vote
          #4.4 - Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:30 PM EDT
          Dr. Riccardo Privitera

          Hello Future History, welcome to the debate. Regarding your question on the father of Miss M, there was no evidence of sexual abuse in his childhood, but there was abuse nevertheless as he came from a very strict Protestant household, that imposed harsh corporal punishments for the slightest infraction, long hours of Bible study and prayer, and self-flagellation for impure thoughts in front of the whole family. For example in one of his statements he relates how his father whipped him with a horse whip when he was 8 or 9 for fondling his genitals in the bath, and then forced him to read on his knees passages from the Bible in the garden in the rain. So yes, we can say that he was a victim of an insidious form of Religious abuse himself. There is no doubt that this correlates with the horror he put his daughter through. On the mother, on the other hand, there was no trace of any abusive or overtly religious indoctrination, that could explain her role in the abuse of the daughter.

          • 1 vote
          #4.5 - Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:18 PM EDT
          Future History

          Yeesh. I'll bet the grandparents would be the first in line to condemn their son's abhorent behavior too. Sounds more like the father of Miss M. had some deviency beyond the realm of religion, and religion was just a convenient scapegoat for him. As far as Miss M.'s mother, GUILTY as hell. Not that the father is innocent, but sexually abusing your children requires some serious mental instability on a pathological level. It's just very sad that it got to that point, and continued without any sort of intervention.

            #4.6 - Tue Mar 15, 2011 6:37 PM EDT
            Reply
            A North American

            "Necessity is the mother of invention".

            The world's first religion was invented thousands (???) of years ago and has since evolved into the hundreds. Humans, being what we are, have seen fit to distort and embellish several random and co-incidental acts of nature and convert these innocuous but normal events into a sign that some universal overlord is responsible for its occurence.

            A few billion people on earth now share some bizarre link to this "heavens above" dogma and it hasn't benefited any of the previous billions on earth, the present billions on earth and certainly will not benefit the earths future billions upon billions.

            • 3 votes
            Reply#5 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 11:51 AM EDT
            ROBBY therobotDeleted
            Dr. Riccardo Privitera

            A North American

            There so much truth in your comment!

            Welcome and thank you for such a poignant intervention which I hope will make people think a little more. Regards.

            • 2 votes
            #5.2 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:31 PM EDT
            Dr. Riccardo Privitera

            Robby the Robot, I agree with you too. At the end of the day it's all about politics, control and money.

            • 2 votes
            #5.3 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:33 PM EDT
            0pinion8ed

            Oops, wrong place.

            • 1 vote
            #5.4 - Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:09 AM EDT
            Reply
            Tom-VermillionOhio

            Very well written article, Dr. Privitera. Religion is nothing more than an 'tool' or 'instrument' used by the elite of society to control the multitudes of that society. Why is it that those who peach and impose the rules of religion have the most difficulty applying those rules to themselves? Your article answers in part some of that question.

            • 3 votes
            Reply#6 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:22 PM EDT
            Dr. Riccardo Privitera

            Hello Tom-VermillionOhio, good to hear from you, and glad you enjoyed the essay. I agree with you entirely, religion is a tool, an instrument of control which allows a few to control many. If you haven't, then read GW. Bush book, Decision Points. In it you'll find some very practical applications of your comment.

            • 2 votes
            #6.1 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:42 PM EDT
            Reply
            0pinion8ed

            I cannot disagre but this will take some time to assimilate for me. Thank you for writing it.

            • 1 vote
            Reply#7 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 12:53 PM EDT
            Dr. Riccardo Privitera

            Opinion8ed, welcome to the forum and I look forward once you have assimilated the essay to hear from you again.

            • 2 votes
            #7.1 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:43 PM EDT
            0pinion8ed

            Thank you Dr. I did find something that applies.

            "It is the old practice of despots; to use a part of the people to keep the rest in order. And those who have once got an ascendancy and possessed themselves of all the resources of the nation, their revenues of offices, have immense means for retaining their advantage."

            Thomas Jefferson

            Still absorbing. AS a child in a Catholic environment, I used to fight myself to believe the things I was being taught. I thought it meant I was bad for not being able to believe. Even went to the Convent in order to try to find what others found so easily. Three months in, I had a nervous breakdown. Religion is cruel, not to mention the cruelty done in the name of "faith". I have found it very disturbing for religions to focus their attention on the crucifixion and death of Jesus instead of what he taught, the power of the human mind and spirit as well, in a limited capacity, of how to harness that power.

              #7.2 - Mon Mar 14, 2011 6:20 AM EDT
              Dr. Riccardo Privitera

              Opinion8ed, Thanks for this quote of Thomas Jefferson, one American I admire immensely. I noticed that a lot of people in the US take the Founding Fathers of the US Constitution for granted, and forget that these men and women escaped from Europe and the religious persecutions that to this day are a shameful stain on European History.

              Your personal experience is very enlightening, and I can imagine the intellectual crisis that you went through. Thanks for sharing. Though I am an Atheist and don't believe in Gods or superior beings, it doesn't mean that I don't have a spiritual dimension so I would like to leave you with this quote from Morihei Ueshiba "O Sensei", as all practitioners of Aikido like myself refer to him as:

              One doesn't need money, power or status to practice the Art of Peace (Aikido). Heaven is right where you stand, and that is the place to train (begin).

                #7.3 - Mon Mar 14, 2011 7:02 AM EDT
                0pinion8ed

                Thanks for your interest Dr. Ric, That was long ago and far away and sent me on my spiritual journey eventually. I continue to be amazed at the spiritual limitations religon places on the human spirit to bridle it and bring it under control. As a result, I do believe in something I only call God for the sake of convenience. I perfer Yahweh... metaphysical translation... "I am that I am". That I do believe in, just don't believe in religion.

                I do appreciate the reference to Aikido. More to add to my store of knowledge. Thank you.

                  #7.4 - Mon Mar 14, 2011 11:19 AM EDT
                  Future History

                  I have found it very disturbing for religions to focus their attention on the crucifixion and death of Jesus instead of what he taught ...

                  Not to mention the bizarre rituals about eating his flesh and blood. When is mock canibalization ever looked at in a positive light? Dr. Priv speaks of the bible as being one of the most damaging books in the history of mankind, but the rituals are even scarier.

                  • 1 vote
                  #7.5 - Tue Mar 15, 2011 2:41 PM EDT
                  Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                  Future History, you are right the rituals are very spooky, and they are in my view not cannibalistic but also carry a form of very sick sexual perversion ingrained in the whole choreography that is extremely disturbing.

                  • 1 vote
                  #7.6 - Tue Mar 15, 2011 5:22 PM EDT
                  Andrew3378

                  Not to mention the bizarre rituals about eating his flesh and blood. When is mock canibalization ever looked at in a positive light? Dr. Priv speaks of the bible as being one of the most damaging books in the history of mankind, but the rituals are even scarier.

                  I completely agree with you. In fact, you reminded me of a passage in one of my favorite books. It's Dan Brown's The Lost Symbol.

                  In the book, Robert Langdon, the protagonist is discussing cults with his students, they are saying that cults are freaky.

                  Langdon scanned the class. 'Does that sound freaky to anyone else?'
                  'Yes!' they all chimed in.
                  Langdon feigned a sad sigh. 'Too bad. If that's too freaky for you, then I know you'll never want to join my cult.'
                  Silence settled over the room. The student from the Women's Center looked uneasy. 'You're in a cult?'
                  Langdon nodded and lowered his voice to a conspiratorial whisper. 'Don't tell anyone, but on the pagan day of the sun god Ra, I kneel at the foot of an ancient instrument of torture and consume ritualistic symbols of blood and flesh.'
                  The class looked horrified.
                  Langdon shrugged. 'And if any of you care to join me, come to the Harvard chapel on Sunday, kneel beneath the crucifix, and take Holy Communion.'
                  The classroom remained silent.

                  • 2 votes
                  #7.7 - Sat Mar 19, 2011 8:51 PM EDT
                  Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                  Andrew3378 Welcome to the debate and thanks for quoting Dan Brown (one of my favorite authors).

                  The quote is spot on!

                  • 2 votes
                  #7.8 - Sun Mar 20, 2011 10:15 AM EDT
                  Reply
                  willard

                  As a recovering christian, I agree that religion - all of them - promotes evil w/in men (Because they get all the benefits, while women and children suffer under their useless egos.)

                  • 3 votes
                  Reply#8 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 2:11 PM EDT
                  Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                  Willard I extend you my welcome to the forum, and I hope to hear more from you regarding your experience as a 'recovering Christian'. So please join in again, as I sure that you could contribute a lot to the debate. Regards.

                  • 2 votes
                  #8.1 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:46 PM EDT
                  Reply
                  Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                  Gotme They should put Witch in front of your name . What a twisted concept of Religion . Interesting if a bit misguided comment to this article, so for your information know this:

                  When the Church was at the height of its power (11th-14th centuries) very few witches died. Persecutions did not reach epidemic levels until after the Reformation, when the Catholic Church had lost its position as Europe's indisputable moral authority. Moreover most of the killing was done by secular courts. Church courts tried many witches but they usually imposed non-lethal penalties. A witch might be excommunicated, given penance, or imprisoned, but she was rarely killed. The Inquisition almost invariably pardoned any witch who confessed and repented.

                  ... in York, England, as described by Keith Thomas (Religion and the Decline of Magic). At the height of the Great Hunt (1567-1640) one half of all witchcraft cases brought before church courts were dismissed for lack of evidence. No torture was used, and the accused could clear himself by providing four to eight "compurgators", people who were willing to swear that he wasn't a witch. Only 21% of the cases ended with convictions, and the Church did not impose any kind of corporal or capital punishment.

                  ... Ironically, the worst courts were local courts. ..."Community-based" courts were often virtual slaughterhouses, killing 90% of all accused witches... national courts tended to have professional, trained staff -- men who were less likely to discard important legal safeguards in their haste to see "justice" done.

                  • 1 vote
                  Reply#9 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 4:53 PM EDT
                  gotme!!

                  Well sir , you are not talking about Christians in this article , because it very obvious that you have no idea what makes a Christian . You do make a lot of references to some very sick misguided people and you seem to think they are Christians , but they don't fit with anything Holy in God's word . You've posted a lot of stuff here and never once have you mentioned the Love of God . That is all the Bible is about and nothing else other than History . God's love is the most important part of his word and somehow you missed it .

                  God says the truth will set you free and I do hope you come to know that before it's too late . God Loves us , you included . I hope you truely know that some day .

                  My apologies for calling you a witch . Just human and get carried away sometime , but I'm trying .

                    Reply#10 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:33 PM EDT
                    TheJackel

                    And all loving god is stated in the bible as being a Jealous GOD... You might want to actually figure out what the word "loving means".

                    • 1 vote
                    #10.1 - Mon Mar 14, 2011 12:39 AM EDT
                    thiscantbe

                    Yes, God is very loving, so loving, he loves when parents force themselves on their children, or kill them to show their love for Him. He loves when men kill all the men, women, and non virgins, and then rewards them with virgins, which I'm sure they are planning to leave pure of course...

                      #10.2 - Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:00 AM EDT
                      TheJackel

                      The Christian GOD doesn't exist anyways.. Under the Christian GOD concept, all things are GODS or there are no GOD's at all. How so? Well read my reply below to find out! :)

                      Before any of you start reading this posted reply, I suggest all of you to read up on information Theory :) I wrote an article on it myself that helps explain it, and you can find it here:

                      Information: The Material Physical Cause of Causation.

                      Thus unfortunately for Christians, their GOD is literally impossible to exist. I can just simply crush the entire concept using just basic information theory. We can just take a moment to address the Fount of Knowledge:

                      St John of Damascus, The Fount of Knowledge:

                      Abstract 1:
                      "The uncreate, the unoriginate, the immortal, the bound- less, the eternal, the immaterial, the good, the creative, the just, the enlightening, the unchangeable, the passionless, the uncircumscribed, the uncontained, the unlimited, the indefi- nable, the invisible, the inconceivable, the wanting nothing, the having absolute power and authority, the life-giving, the almighty, the infinitely powerful, the sanctifying and com- municating, the containing and sustaining all things, and the providing for all all these and the like He possesses by His nature. They are not received from any other source; on the contrary, it is His nature that communicates all good to His own creatures in accordance with the capacity of each."

                      Abstract 2:
                      "And yet again, there is His knowing of all things by a simple act of knowing. And there is His distinctly seeing with His divine, all-seeing, and immaterial eye all things at once"

                      1. Omniscient
                      2. Boundless
                      3. Unlimited
                      4. Uncontained
                      5. The containing and sustaining of all things
                      6. Omnipresent

                      Thus it can be said that such an argument self-collapses in every area of the supposed attributes given when anyone of them is taken out of the equation by another conflicting attribute, or thing. Especially in the case or state of absolute Omniscience. So here is what it boils down to under information theory:

                      * I = reference to all the information that gives I an Identity. It's the entire essences of "I am".

                      So let's see where this entire GOD concept completely falls apart. Especially when concerning "Omniscience".

                      1) A boundless GOD? Can a boundless GOD be boundless if you are to claim all of us to separate individuals? What boundaries lie between GOD being me, and not being me? If he is uncontained then what separates him from me? If he's without limits, what limits define GOD apart from who I am?.. If he is omnipresent, where do I exist? If he contains and sustains all things, would he not be existence itself? Thus am I, and everyone else here not the conscious representations of god, or GOD himself?

                      2) The Christian GOD concept can only ever at best describe existence itself as a whole. You may as well be worshiping yourself.

                      3) Even solipsism will fail under information theory because consciousness can not exist without cause! Consciousness can not exist without first a base of inquiry that can support it. Thus consciousness requires information, with a system to which has feedback in order to achieve a function of observation.

                      A: There can be no choice, or decision made without information
                      B: There can be no consciousness or awareness without information
                      C: One can not have knowledge without information
                      D: One can not do anything without information
                      E: One can not exist without informational value
                      F: One can not think without information
                      G: One can not even know one's self exists without information
                      H: One can not reply, respond, or react without information
                      I: One can not convey, send, or express a message without information
                      J: There can be no morals, ethics, or laws without information
                      K: One can not have or express emotions, or feelings without information
                      L: One can not have experiences, or experience anything at all without information
                      M: One can not have a place to exist in order to be existent without information
                      N: One can not Create, or Design anything without information
                      O: One can not have the ability to process things without information
                      P: Intelligence can not exist without information to apply
                      Q: No system, or process can exist without information
                      R: Cause and effect can not exist without information

                      There are 3 fundamental laws that govern cause and effect, information, and energy. These same 3 laws govern consciousness, morals, ethics, laws, emotions, and feelings. So what are they?

                      POSITIVE
                      NEGATIVE
                      NEUTRAL

                      These are not only the base laws of existence, they are the attributes to everything, and everything we know of is made of energy. thus it's considered under information theory that Energy =/= information as both substance and value. They are two sides of the same coin! And their 3 fundamental properties/attributes/laws are the cause of all causation. Information and energy are thus simply stated as "Cause".

                      There can only ever be a positive, negative, or neutral;

                      Action
                      Reaction
                      Process
                      Mathematical equation
                      Answer
                      Choice
                      Decision
                      Intent
                      Purpose
                      Moral
                      Ethic
                      Emotion
                      Feeling
                      Piece of information
                      State
                      Function
                      Ability
                      Response
                      System
                      Feedback
                      Opinion
                      Phenomenon
                      Condition
                      Ability
                      Power
                      Electric Charge
                      Selection
                      Adaptation
                      Mutation
                      Transformation
                      Position
                      Point of view
                      Observation
                      Sensation
                      Perception
                      Or the relativity of anything above

                        #10.3 - Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:38 AM EDT
                        Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                        Dear Jackal, it has been a pleasure reading your article, and I agree with you 100%. The fallacy of Christianity falls on its very axioms, one of them being "The Bible is the word of God alone". Based on that axiom famous Christian philosophers and theologians, tried desperately to combine axioms of Aristotelian Logic with Christian dogmatic thinking and tried desperately to give a rational explanation to the "theory" of the Holy Trinity, and all failed miserably. The Bible has a book, has been proven just that! A book, of little historical accuracy, nevertheless, sadly, of great political significance.

                        Thank you for your comment and intervention on my forums you are a most welcome guest.

                          #10.4 - Mon Mar 14, 2011 8:43 AM EDT
                          TheJackel

                          I think you would appreciate this video :)

                          http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r6w2M50_Xdk

                            #10.5 - Tue Mar 15, 2011 1:23 AM EDT
                            Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                            Thanks The Jackel for the link, a very interesting little video indeed. Regards

                              #10.6 - Tue Mar 15, 2011 4:55 AM EDT
                              Ron in CT

                              While I agree with your article, I do disagree with post 10.4. The bible, a book of fiction at best, was not regarded by many to be the inerrant or infallible word of god until the Fundamentalist movement took hold in the early 20th century, around 1920. While there were some before that believed it to be the verbatim ramblings of their deity, most believed it to be a guide to their religious experience, not an instruction manual.

                              • 2 votes
                              #10.7 - Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:40 AM EDT
                              Reply
                              grumpy_jon

                              It doesn't do any good to reply to Gotme. He/she is just a troll, trolling all over the Vine to inflame conversations. His/her lack of respect for anyone and/or anything that isn't him/her speaks for itself.

                              I am truly sorry that you got a child abusing perspective from the story of Abraham; this is not what I believe the case to be. God was testing Abraham. As you may have read, Abraham was truly troubled and anguished over the idea of sacrificing his son; only when he was fully ready to submit, God stopped him and provided a ram whose horns were caught in a thistle for sacrifice. I see the point of the story as trusting God in the worst of moments and not a child sacrificial testimony.

                              The only problem with religious texts are in the interpretations that mankind associates with those texts. While I cannot speak for the Torah or Koran, these seem to be as obviated as the Bible. Take for example the role of women.

                              Genesis 1:27 So God created mankind in his own image,
                              in the image of God he created them;
                              male and female he created them.

                              God created man in His own image. God took woman out of man. Therefore, woman is the part of God's image that is missing from man. Only when truly together (power of procreation, for example) are they still in the whole image of God. This makes woman the very equal of man, and, not subservient at all. Then there is the story of "the fall". Most Christians (and others, I suppose) blame Eve, saying, "Eve tempted Adam with the fruit." NONSENSE; read the story:

                              Genesis 3: 6 When the woman saw that the fruit of the tree was good for food and pleasing to the eye, and also desirable for gaining wisdom, she took some and ate it. She also gave some to her husband, who was with her, and he ate it.

                              I highlighted a particular phrase that is commonly overlooked. Adam "was with her." He wasn't across the street, across town, or not paying attention. He stood right there, heard every word said, and took the fruit of his own accord. I see it this way: man is a pig (both good and bad, admittedly); he used logic to think, "God truly did say...I was there...I heard it." Then, he concocted a scheme, a test if you will, to see if the serpent was wrong. If Eve ate the fruit and dropped over dead, he would ask God for a new "helper", otherwise it was safe to eat. Either way, it was a win-win situation for him.

                              God should never be thought of as a "penis (that) has the potential to abuse." Man and woman brought their troubles (and all of ours also) upon themselves through the simple act of disobedience, including the ramifications of that act (they died, eventually).

                              Everything that I see in the Bible is for good, for love of self and others as well as God. Please do not let a bunch of overzealous pinheads who delude that message into hatred, abuse, discrimination, and punishment guide your judgment of the overall text. This is not an attempt to proselytize; you brought the subject up and I believe that many of your comments regarding God and His role in the lives of believers are exceptionally wrong, not due to your misunderstanding, but rather, to the gross misunderstanding of so many others who profess the faith.

                              Sorry for being so long-winded, but there was a lot to address here. If you are an atheist, then for your sake, I hope that you are right; it won't matter if I'm wrong after I go after all. If not, then please act like a doctor, attacking the disease rather than the symptoms. Religion is not the disease; the diseases interpretation of what that religion should represent is the true culprit. In that last regard, I wholeheartedly agree with everything that you wrote.

                                Reply#11 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 5:44 PM EDT
                                TheJackel

                                The Adam and Eve story about the tree of knowledge and the forbidden fruit was a story about control. Hence it's forbidden to educate yourself, or to seek knowledge that will not be obedient to the ideology. It's well understood in the mechanics of brainwashing people. And it's thus a sin to seek knowledge. The difference between right and wrong was not entirely about morals, or ethics. It was about right being the following of the religion, and wrong being defiant of it. Thus anything that is against the ideology is demonic, sinful, evil, ect. And thus should be murdered, killed, or segregated from society... it's about making you feel less of a human if you do not devote your life to blind obedience to the church/religion.

                                And you wonder why you have Christians out there with "GOD HATES FAGS" signs, or out there protesting at peoples funerals. Religion is for the ignorantly insane, or the plain ignorant. It literally depends on people being complete morons in order for it to have any relevance. Why do you think they prey on peoples emotions, tragedies, children, fear, and vulnerabilities as indoctrination tools. ?

                                • 1 vote
                                #11.1 - Mon Mar 14, 2011 1:57 AM EDT
                                Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                To Grumpy_Jon, first I wish to thank you for taking the time of reading the essay and for your comments. Though I respect anyone's beliefs and creeds there are certain aspects of what you say that I cannot agree with and that I will develop, but let me clarify two things that you mentioned, one being that yes I am an atheist, and two that my doctorates are in Law and Ancient History, so I am not a medical doctor.

                                I can see that your faith and consequent acceptance in books like the Old Testament, the New Testament, the Bible (and here the question which one?) makes you want to logically interpret these texts in a positive way, which is natural and obvious from your point of view and being a person of faith. I instead read and dissect them, as I have read the Torah and the Qur'an without that element of belief that is characteristic of people who believe, and therefore I treat them as I would treat a Law book or a History book, and tend to look at the facts in a black-and-white manner. To me logic is everything, therefore I have to agree with the comment left by The Jackel whole -heartedly.

                                To me, going back to the tale of Abraham, the very fact that a God has to ask one of his creations to sacrifice a son just to test the faith of his own creation (and as Abraham, according to Christian logic, was created by God in the first place, his faith should have been beyond doubt) is absurd. Even more absurd is the fact that Abraham accepts to kill his own son to prove his faith to his God. To me that's a total disregard for the child, and a form of child abuse. That God stops him when he is about to cut his own son's throat as he is satisfied of Abraham's faith is even more mind boggling, and that he gives him a goat to kill instead is rather disgusting in itself. Can you imagine the traumatic effect on a child being taken to the top of a mountain by his own father and seeing his own father take out a rusty knife and put the blade on the child's throat? And then the child has to see the father cut the throat of a goat to satisfy the wishes of his God! Now why would a God (of love) need the blood of a goat (after all he created the poor animal did he not?) ?

                                So, my friend I think that we shall to agree to disagree on this one. Regards

                                  #11.2 - Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:14 AM EDT
                                  Reply
                                  Auteur 1536

                                  RELIGION: THE HARBINGER OF CHILD ABUSE

                                  I'd say it's [mostly] "traditional" religions like Christianity, orthodox branches of Judaism, and Islam that are bad for children - mainly because in those religions women and children are looked upon as and treated as property.

                                    Reply#12 - Sun Mar 13, 2011 6:12 PM EDT
                                    Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                    Auteur 1536, I have to agree with you in what you say, as traditional mainstream religions have an abysmal view of women and children. Thank you for your intervention.

                                    • 1 vote
                                    #12.1 - Mon Mar 14, 2011 9:22 AM EDT
                                    Reply
                                    Grisham

                                    First off, I'm sorry about Mrs M's ordeal. I also enjoyed your article. I don't share many of your views but I appreciate a well thought out argument.

                                    From my perspective, blaming religion for child abuse isn't fair. I know that religion is under fire and people like to blame it for every ill mankind has ever suffered, but it's not a fair assessment in my opinion. The Bible (for example) was written over a thousand years ago. Societal values have changed since then. Men are no longer thought of as the head of the household, kids are no longer cheap labor and women are no longer house runners and subservient to men.

                                    In Canada until recently, the age of sexual consent was 14. I actually wrote an article for my newspaper about it. Does that mean all Canadians are child molesters? You could infer that they are compared to the rest of the civilized world. But that isn't the case. I recently wrote an article about the nature of evil and in it explore how civilization and societal norms change throughout history. What wasn't considered evil a few hundred years ago (say slavery in the US) is thought to be evil now. Does that mean the world should ignore everything that was written in the US when slavery was the norm? Of course not. That would be throwing the baby out with the bath water.

                                    Personally, I think people interpret things the way they want to in order to get what they want. Words can be twisted. The Bible in my opinion, as well as most other religous books was meant to be read to pass on the views and the lessons of the day. There are a lot of good moral lessons and debate topics within the Bible, for example.

                                    Without going on and on with my post and wasting your time, I think religion has become a convenient scapegoat for people who need something to blame. Instead of blaming the scripture the pervert you were talking about in your article was spouting, look to the person who was spouting it. He's the problem, not the Bible. The Bible was just the means to which the idiot rationalized his actions. If the Bible didn't exist, he'd most likely still be a child molester with different rationalizations.

                                    Thanks again for the read. :)

                                      Reply#13 - Wed Mar 16, 2011 3:35 AM EDT
                                      Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                      Grisham. I welcome you wholeheartedly to the debate, and thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with me. If I have read you correctly you are from Canada (a country I like very much) and a journalist to boot.I have sent you a friend's request which I hope that you'll accept, and I will take the time to read your articles on Newsvine. I read a little bit of one on serial killers and the concept of evil that is very interesting indeed.

                                      Blaming all religion for child abuse, wasn't my intention, though I believe it a substantial contributing factor to the issue. The issue of consent is a tricky one as each culture views that differently. In Africa it varies greatly depending if you are in the Southern, Central, Eastern or Western part of the Continent and it is also influenced by ethnicity and tribal differences. In Europe, in countries like Holland and Belgium it was 12 till recently, and I had no idea that in Canada it was 14 till recently. By the way, I'd love to read the article you wrote about it. Child abusive adults, thankfully represent a minority of individuals irrespective of their religiosity or secularism and so it would absurd to label all religious people as child abusers, or all others as potential abusers interdependently of what is the legal age of consent.

                                      I agree with you that the Bible, as other religious books do contain valuable topics of debate regarding morality and behavior. Though, here again I wouldn't generalize the issue, as moral codes vary with cultural differences. You mention the abhorrent practice of slavery (today abhorrent to most of the Western world), that in the past was considered moral thing to practice, at least for us; and yet, still today in countries like Mauritania, Chad, the Sudan, Somalia it is still practiced and considered legal.

                                      I agree with you that independently of what factors (be it religious or other) have influenced idiots like Miss M's father to abuse their children, one has to look at the individual first. Who probably would have abused his daughter even if the Bible hadn't existed and found some other cause to justify his actions. As a lawyer I have seen many of these cases, and I make it a point to try and understand the why such a thing can happen. Well I can tell you this my friend, neither as a lawyer nor as a human being I come up with an answer that makes any sense. Yet!

                                        #13.1 - Wed Mar 16, 2011 6:45 AM EDT
                                        Grisham

                                        Grisham. I welcome you wholeheartedly to the debate, and thank you for taking the time to share your thoughts with me. If I have read you correctly you are from Canada (a country I like very much) and a journalist to boot.I have sent you a friend's request which I hope that you'll accept, and I will take the time to read your articles on Newsvine. I read a little bit of one on serial killers and the concept of evil that is very interesting indeed.

                                        FR accepted gladly. And thank you for reading my article on Evil. I've begun to read your other articles as well. They are very interesting.

                                        It seems we are in agreement. I will try to dig up that old article in my archives. The age of sexual consent in Canada now is 16 and I think even that is too low. However, it's much better than 14.

                                          #13.2 - Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:20 AM EDT
                                          Reply
                                          Grisham

                                          To quote an infamous Christian: “The masses of the people will more easily fall to a big lie than to a small one”. Adolf Hitler, Mein Kampf.

                                          Oh, and Hitler's religous views are greatly contested. It's not at all clear that he was a Christian. In fact, he showed contempt for organized religion throughout his reign and even during childhood.

                                          http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adolf_Hitler%27s_religious_views

                                            Reply#14 - Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:48 AM EDT
                                            Ron in CT

                                            Hitler was a Catholic, and professed it on many occasions. He went so far as to state that the Catholic Church was in favor of his treatment of the Jews because of what they did to Christ. He took their silence on the matter as benign approval. Soon after the Nazi Party takeover of power in Germany, the Nazi government resumed talks with the Holy See concerning the establishment of a concordat. So your statement that he showed contempt for organized religion only applies to those other than the Catholic Church.

                                            • 2 votes
                                            #14.1 - Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:50 AM EDT
                                            Andrew3378

                                            Hitler was a Catholic, and professed it on many occasions. He went so far as to state that the Catholic Church was in favor of his treatment of the Jews because of what they did to Christ. He took their silence on the matter as benign approval. Soon after the Nazi Party takeover of power in Germany, the Nazi government resumed talks with the Holy See concerning the establishment of a concordat. So your statement that he showed contempt for organized religion only applies to those other than the Catholic Church.

                                            I completely agree. In fact, if I may add to this, Hitler saw himself as some sort of Messiah of the Christian religion. He was obsessed with Christian symbols particularly The Spear of Longinus which is said to have pierced Jesus's side at the cross. He had it taken from the Hofsburg Museum in Vienna and put it in a vault to keep it from being destroyed by bombings.

                                            Walter Stein who was with Hitler the first time he laid eyes on the spear, wrote a book about it. In his book, Hitler had this to say:

                                            I stood there quietly gazing upon it for several minutes quite oblivious to the scene around me. It seemed to carry some hidden inner meaning which evaded me, a meaning which I felt I inwardly knew yet could not bring to consciousness...I felt as though I myself had held it before in some earlier century of history. That I myself had once claimed it as my talisman of power and held the destiny of the world in my hands...

                                            Hitler was one scary dude!! Brrrrrr.

                                            • 2 votes
                                            #14.2 - Sun Mar 20, 2011 2:12 PM EDT
                                            Reply
                                            Grisham

                                            In fact, it makes more sense to think that Hitler was a Darwinist, like the 1998 papers from the Nuremberg trials show. Hitler wanted racial purity and believed in survival of the fittest. He probably catered to Christianity because at first he was afraid of their power and because it was a convenient tool to spur his sick movement. It's actually a rather good example of how any ideology can be twisted by someone to achieve their own aims.

                                            In Hitler's conception, Jews were enemies of all civilization, especially the Volk; this idea was rooted in an ideology based on Social Darwinism and antisemitism.[43][44] His understanding of Darwinism was incomplete and based on the theory of "survival of the fittest" in a social context, as popularly misunderstood at the time.[45][46]

                                            In 1998 documents were released by Cornell University from the Nuremberg Trials,[47] that revealed Nazi plans to eliminate Christianity entirely. One senior member of the U.S. prosecution team, General William Donovan, as part of his work on documenting Nazi war crimes, compiled large amounts of documentation that the Nazis persecuted Christian Churches.[48]

                                            Donovan's documents include almost 150 bound volumes currently stored at Cornell University after his death in 1959; these documents state

                                            "Important leaders of the National Socialist party would have liked to meet this situation [church influence] by complete extirpation of Christianity and the substitution of a purely racial religion," said an OSS report in July 1945. "The best evidence now available as to the existence of an anti-Church plan is to be found in the systematic nature of the persecution itself.

                                            They also show the different steps involved in the persecution,[49] including the campaign to suppress denominational and youth organizations, denominational schools, and the use of defamation against the clergy, orchestrated to start on the same day over the Reich and supported by the press, Nazi Party meetings and by traveling party speakers.[50][51] The documents show that the Nazis early on wanted the churches neutralized because they feared that the Churches would oppose Nazi plans based on racism and aggressive wars. The Nazis planned to infiltrate churches and use defamation, arrest, assault and/or kill pastors, and "re-educate" church congregations. They also suppressed denominational schools and Christian youth organizations.

                                              Reply#15 - Wed Mar 16, 2011 4:55 AM EDT
                                              Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                              Grisham, I agree that Hitler was a Social Darwinist at the height of his "intellectual maturity", though in fact, initially he was brought up as a Conservative Catholic of lower Middle-Class background. After all he was born in the little Austrian town of Braunau, son of a Custom officer and a school teacher. There is no doubt that during his time in Vienna, where he tried to enter unsuccessfully the more cultured circles of Viennese academia, and was rejected and was exposed to the ideas of Hubenfels, Rosenberg, and others. His whole concept of social engineering is hardly surprising looking at his failures as an intellectual and the lack of recognition that greatly frustrated him. No doubt also, his long time friendship with Heidrich Himmler, the Bavarian chicken farmer, that became the Reichsfurher of the SS, and the second most powerful man in Nazi Germany had an impact.

                                              His hatred of the Jews, no doubt does come from his time in Vienna, and probably the people who rejected him intellectually were Jews:

                                              "Was there any form of filth or profligacy, particularly in cultural life, without at least one Jew involved in it?" Mein Kampf

                                              In this respect I am not at all surprised that the Catholics were next on the list, as he saw them as an obstacle to the elimination of the Jew as in fact he confirms in this passage of Mein Kampf:

                                              "I believe I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: by defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord."

                                              I don't know if you have read it, but there is an excellent book: The Face of the Third Reich: Portraits of the Nazi Leadership, by Joachim Fest that is truly fascinating, as well as the biography on Hitler himself, written by the same author and published in 1973. If you haven't let me know, I'll send them to you. Regards.

                                                #15.1 - Wed Mar 16, 2011 7:14 AM EDT
                                                Grisham

                                                I don't know if you have read it, but there is an excellent book: The Face of the Third Reich: Portraits of the Nazi Leadership, by Joachim Fest that is truly fascinating, as well as the biography on Hitler himself, written by the same author and published in 1973. If you haven't let me know, I'll send them to you. Regards.

                                                I have not read them and would love to. :) The Second World War is one of my favorite subjects because it scares and horrifies me, but at the same time it makes me ask, why?

                                                  #15.2 - Wed Mar 16, 2011 8:22 AM EDT
                                                  Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                                  Grisham. War is always an horrific experience, my father was in WW2, and served with a Cavalry Regiment of the Italian Army, the "Savoia Cavalry Regiment", attached to the Italian 8th army that Mussolini sent to Russia to "help" his friend Adolf. On the 23 August, 1942 my father and his regiment executed probably one of the last real cavalry charges in history, when at Izbushensky on the River Don, they charged 2000 Russians. Of the whole 100.000.00 men that Mussolini sent to Russia, only 4000 made it back to Italy and luckily my father was one of them. I too was in the army in South Africa, and saw combat in the Border Wars from 1974 to 1981, mainly Angola, but also Mozambique and Zambia. It's a brutal and life changing experience that I wouldn't wish on my worst enemy. Why we fight? Who knows? Probably its because old men decide and young men are foolish enough to die for those decisions. One thing I do know with absolute certainty though, and that is once in combat one fights and dies for the man next to you, all the rest doesn't matter.

                                                  Just an "off-topic" question related to a project that I am working on. Did you ever hear in Canada of a man Kevin Annett, and a report detailing crimes of Genocide against natives of Canada?

                                                  • 1 vote
                                                  #15.3 - Thu Mar 17, 2011 2:01 PM EDT
                                                  Grisham

                                                  No, I've never heard of Kevin. However, I'm aquainted with the genocide against the natives. Even today they are treated poorly by our government. I've never been able to figure out why, since Canada is basically built on the premise of tolerance. There have been reports of cultural genocide and many people are divided on the native question.

                                                    #15.4 - Sat Mar 19, 2011 7:28 AM EDT
                                                    Reply
                                                    Venator

                                                    It is situations like this that I look to a very true and simple quote:

                                                    "Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion."
                                                    — Jon Stewart

                                                    It is this quote that truly summarizes my view of "actual" religion that I myself try to study & practice and the organization that has tainted a good message and teachings individuals were trying to pass on.

                                                    A true open mind studies the bible and tries to figure out true meanings. Unfortunately, the bible is full of extensive historic information of true teachings mixed in with with heavy corruption, to the point where it comes a difficult book to reference and have people take you seriously when one is truly trying to analyze it instead of just meaninglessly quoting it with out any other backing.

                                                    P.S. I am sorry about what your friend went through.

                                                      Reply#16 - Sat Mar 19, 2011 2:11 PM EDT
                                                      Hiram-1381633

                                                      I am very sorry for what your friend went through. It was a tragic and horrible event. However does that give anyone the right to condemn an entire group of people? "I respect anyone's beliefs and creeds" Your words yet a direct contraindication to the title of your article RELIGION: THE HARBINGER OF CHILD ABUSE. After reading the column perhaps it should be retitled, "Christianity : The Harbinger of Child Abuse" as that is what the majority of the content is about.

                                                      There is not one Christian that I now that would have condoned the behavior of the parents you presented in the opening of the column. The speculations you make through our the rest of your column are so far from what it means to be a Christian it would be hard to leap across a canyon so wide. I do not know why you have such a discontent towards this group of people but it is sad that it exist in your life. It always is amazing that those that want all to be tolerant are in themselves intolerant.

                                                      I have read and responded to several of your past in the past. You appear to be a very intelligent well educated person. That perhaps is the most disturbing. In dealing with the many personalities on the Vine I have been as a Christian attacked many times, all though some of these have been viscous and insulting I prefer them to the way you attack. To disguise prejudice and bigotry towards a group of people in the form of an intellectual exercise is a poor use of ones abilities. I wish you only the best in your life's journey, and I hope that some day and in some way you will let go of this anger you have towards Christians. I am sure there are far better things you can use your gifts for that have more meaning and use in life than to pursue the elimination of Christianity.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      Reply#17 - Sat Mar 19, 2011 4:12 PM EDT
                                                      Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                                      Welcome Hiram1381633, and thank you for your comment.

                                                      To answer the various issues you have raised, I'll begin by saying that as an atheist I see these issues with no emotional baggage, and look at the consequences of religious indoctrination coldly and factually. As both a Lawyer and an historian my purpose is to examine evidence and facts without emotion or faith. And you in fact confirm this by your statement:

                                                      "have read and responded to several of your past in the past. You appear to be a very intelligent well educated person. That perhaps is the most disturbing. In dealing with the many personalities on the Vine I have been as a Christian attacked many times, all though some of these have been viscous and insulting I prefer them to the way you attack."

                                                      First of all mine is not an attack on what you choose to believe in, I am simply looking at what you believe through the cold looking glass of an intellectual microscope, something that you can't do, as it would put your faith into question. Neither I am disguising bigotry or intolerance through an intellectual exercise as you put it, because if that would be so you could challenge the factuality of the article in a much better way, than saying that you prefer to be insulted, or vilified rather than face reality of what in effect your chosen belief implies in reality, a reality that you choose to ignore like most people. Sure, I would love to see humanity less dependent on the indoctrination of any religious belief or creed, a more logical, factual and moral humanity, but I don't condemn anyone for what they believe. The fact that you don't know a Christian that wouldn't condemn the parents of Miss M is not a surprise, after all did you really believe that anyone would condone such behavior publicly? But if we look at facts then you'll see that the reality I have detailed in my article, can be found in your set of beliefs:

                                                      1. "So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go." (Judges 19:25)

                                                      2. "Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!"(Psalm 137:9)

                                                      3. "Do not allow a sorceress to live." (Exodus 22:18)

                                                      4. "This is what the Lord Almighty says... 'Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'" (1 Samuel 15:3)

                                                      5. "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." (1 Timothy 2:12)

                                                      6. "Wives, submit to your husbands as the Lord." ( Ephesians, 5:22).

                                                      7. "Slaves submit yourself to your masters with all respect, not only the good and gentle but also to the cruel." (1Peter 2:18)

                                                      These my friend are facts of your faith, you may want to ignore them, say they are taken out of contest, but they are facts. They justify rape, child abuse, murder, homophobia, slavery, genocide.

                                                      Granted it's an unedifying list, that enters into conflict with the mythical message of your mythological Christ, but don't forget that in Christian mythology he died certainly in a pretty horrible and painful way, while God (his father) was watching. Now, you may think that some passages in the Bible, the classic stories bring to you as a faithful believer of these doctrines, ground-breaking ethical wisdom and morality, and that you try to live by those precepts that I don't doubt for a second, however when one looks at the whole picture, then any person with logic can tell you that the Bible is not only unacceptable as a guide to morality but if read the wrong way, it allows people to justify their worst behavior and instincts.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #17.1 - Sun Mar 20, 2011 9:56 AM EDT
                                                      Hiram-1381633

                                                      1. "So the man took his concubine and sent her outside to them, and they raped her and abused her throughout the night, and at dawn they let her go." (Judges 19:25)

                                                      A statement of history that happened. Where does it say that God condoned the behavior? The book of Judges is written as an historical accounting, This being one of those accounts, showing the wickedness of man.

                                                      2. "Happy shall they be who take your little ones and dash them against the rock!"(Psalm 137:9)

                                                      When taken in the context of the whole Psalm. It refers to Babylon as the daughter to Edomites whom attacked Israel. The "little ones" it is referring to in a poetic sense are the inhabitants of Babylon. This is a prediction a prophecy of the fall of Babylon not one of killing children.

                                                      3. "Do not allow a sorceress to live." (Exodus 22:18)

                                                      In the OT this is very straight forward to be a sorceress was a graven sin. What you fail to include is that many cultures of that time and in the future had similar laws, not all based on the Bible.

                                                      4. "This is what the Lord Almighty says... 'Now go and strike Amalek and devote to destruction all that they have. Do not spare them, but kill both man and woman, child and infant, ox and sheep, camel and donkey.'" (1 Samuel 15:3)

                                                      Another historical account. As with many others the Amalekites were given opportunity to repent and chose not to. The wrath of God is not just some power He wields without thought or with malice. It is the result of sin, it is the result of the choices we make.

                                                      5. "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent." (1 Timothy 2:12)

                                                      This was also not uncommon in the culture of the time. It is also in scripture that, the head of the church should be male. There is no prejudice in that women can teach and preach but the leaders of the church are to be men. That is the way it has been since the beginning. That however does not make women property or lower than men, I will cover this further down.

                                                      6. "Wives, submit to your husbands as the Lord." ( Ephesians, 5:22).

                                                      One of my favorite passages that people takeout of context. So let us look at the whole.

                                                      21 Submit to one another out of reverence for Christ.

                                                      Submit to one another dose not sound like subjugation to me. It is submitting to one another as Christ submitted. To be willing to die for each other. To love each other unconditionally.

                                                      22 Wives, submit yourselves to your own husbands as you do to the Lord. 23 For the husband is the head of the wife as Christ is the head of the church, his body, of which he is the Savior. 24 Now as the church submits to Christ, so also wives should submit to their husbands in everything.

                                                      An example of God's plan for the family. Every family has to have a leader and in God's plan that leader is the husband. AS a church you turn to Christ for the ultimate answer so it should be in the family. That does not mean the wife has no say. If the husband leads his house as Christ leads the church it is done with love and patients. It is not a dictatorship.

                                                      25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ loved the church and gave himself up for her 26 to make her holy, cleansing[b] her by the washing with water through the word, 27 and to present her to himself as a radiant church, without stain or wrinkle or any other blemish, but holy and blameless. 28 In this same way, husbands ought to love their wives as their own bodies. He who loves his wife loves himself. 29 After all, no one ever hated their own body, but they feed and care for their body, just as Christ does the church— 30 for we are members of his body. 31 “For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and the two will become one flesh.”[c] 32 This is a profound mystery—but I am talking about Christ and the church. 33 However, each one of you also must love his wife as he loves himself, and the wife must respect her husband.

                                                      If any of the above sounds like a dictatorship please re-read it. How am my I to love my wife as Christ loved the church and the turn around and treat her with disrespect and contempt? How are we to become one flesh if I treat her with abuse? I am to love her as I love myself. as Christ loved the church to give my all even unto death for her. This in return earns her love and respect.

                                                      These my friend are facts of your faith

                                                      Bible is not only unacceptable as a guide to morality but if read the wrong way,

                                                      You hit the nail on the head., read the wrong way. Which is exactly what you are doing. We all have bias and prejudice that effect our thinking. We all have presuppositions, yours being that the Bible is wrong and inherently evil. So you spend your time looking for the evil, taking things out of context and understanding to prove your point. I know this because I was once just like you. I hid my bigotry and prejudice behind a intellectual facade, that however did not exclude the fact it was still there. As both a Lawyer and an historian my purpose is to examine evidence and facts without emotion or faith This is well and good if it were possible but alas it is not. I would love to see humanity less dependent on the indoctrination of any religious belief or creed, a more logical, factual and moral humanity, The true purpose of your writings are always very apparent, I have no ill will towards you, or anyone else who chooses not to believe. What I do have concern about is that many spend so much time claiming they respect my beliefs then do all they can to say I am wrong, or ignorant or delusional: that I really do not understand that what I believe is actually evil. That the world would be better off with out it. If you want to write about how and why you do not believe that is well and good, and can be accomplished and has been accomplished without the verbal and intellectual attacks on the morality of others. lastly it allows people to justify their worst behavior and instincts. Humanity does not need the Bible to accomplish this, man is more than capable on his own to reek destruction and mayhem and will use what every he can find to justify it. If truly read in context and in the light the Bible holds us to s standard far higher than any of us has achieved. "You are to love your neighbor as you love yourself"

                                                      H

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #17.2 - Sun Mar 20, 2011 11:24 AM EDT
                                                      Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                                      Hiram 138 very well thought response thank you, I always love a good debate. You see the irrecoverable difference between us is in effect simple. You consider the Bible, the New Testament, and other Christian writings as true. I on the other hand consider the Bible, the Torah, the Koran and all type of religious writings as absolute confidence tricks. The only way one can accept such books as words of a deity is trough faith, blind irrational faith. Historically they are completely inaccurate, and they are so full of holes that can be used as intellectual sieves.

                                                      Of the three I have mentioned the Bible is the worst, and the most damming as far political control goes. That you believe in what is written there unquestionably is your choice, and I am not telling you what to believe, neither I am saying that you are delusional, ignorant or wrong to believe in what you believe. It's your choice. To me such a book is an insult to my intelligence, and while I have no objection to an adult who makes a personal choice to believe in something or other after having analyzed and looked at all the facts, I do take issue with Religious indoctrination of children, that I truly consider the first form child abuse irrespective of the Religion proselytized.

                                                      Now you cannot deny that in the name of your religion more blood, intolerance, abuse, violence, persecution has been committed than in any other, that too is an indisputable fact. As it is an indisputable fact that those who commit the atrocities considers themselves just as much Christians as you claim to be.

                                                      "I Believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: By defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf. He too was raised in a strict Catholic household.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #17.3 - Sun Mar 20, 2011 3:25 PM EDT
                                                      Hiram-1381633

                                                      I do take issue with Religious indoctrination of children, that I truly consider the first form child abuse irrespective of the Religion proselytized.

                                                      An argument I have heard over and over again. How is raising a child to love all of mankind a form of child abuse? How is raising a child with a foundation of morals child abuse? It is a irrational and unfounded argument. I can tell you from personal experience that all the children I know being raised in Christian homes are well adjusted loving children and in some cases no adults. Many of them are home schooled and are well ahead of there public schooled friends.

                                                      Now you cannot deny that in the name of your religion more blood, intolerance, abuse, violence, persecution has been committed than in any other, that too is an indisputable fact

                                                      Man has committed atrocities in the name of many things. Man will use what ever he needs to accomplish what he wants. Statistics show that the number of people killed in the name of religion is far less than another reason. It is a disputable fact to say otherwise is a fallacy. Statistically pre 20 th century Democide killed approximately 133,147,000 people those that can be attributed directly to religious influence is only 2,650,00. Not all of these can be attributed to Christians but is a number of all religions. The figures for the 20th century are just as revealing.

                                                      As it is an indisputable fact that those who commit the atrocities considers themselves just as much Christians as you claim to be.

                                                      As the ad-edge goes I can stand in a garage an claim to be a car but that does not make me one. Back to the argument that man will take even the greatest good and corrupt it for his own evil purpose, that does not make the good evil it makes man evil.

                                                      "I Believe that I am acting in accordance with the will of the Almighty Creator: By defending myself against the Jew, I am fighting for the work of the Lord." Adolf Hitler in Mein Kampf. He too was raised in a strict Catholic household.

                                                      Refer to the above car analogy. If I believe I am killing in the name of my cat does that make my cat evil? There have been many atrocities done in the name of evolution, the Aborigines of Australia were almost wiped out because they were thought to be less evolved. Does that mean that people who believe in evolution are evil? It is an illogical argument that is perpetuated by a bias thought that man is the greater good on his own.

                                                      Historically they are completely inaccurate, and they are so full of holes that can be used as intellectual sieves.

                                                      I like your wording but disagree completely with your conclusions. Sir William Ramsay a noted and decorate archeologist and one of the founders of the British Academey of Science said this about the bible.

                                                      I began with a mind unfavorable to it...but more recently I found myself brought into contact with the Book of Acts as an authority for the topography, antiquities, and society of Asia Minor. It was gradually borne upon me that in various details the narrative showed marvelous truth3.

                                                      Luke is a historian of the first rank; not merely are his statements of fact trustworthy...this author should be placed along with the very greatest historians4.

                                                      There are many more that can be found and quoted. Yet i am sure you can find many to quote with just the opposite opinion. But to claim that my faith is a blind faith is also a fallacy, it is based on study and on research. The evidence presented to me is over whelming in showing that the Bible is the word of God and that it is true.

                                                      In conclusion I can say this: That I know that I perhaps what I present will never convince you. And I am certain beyond a doubt that you will not convince me. I can inform you that at one time in my life in fact for 47 years of it I thought exactly as you do. I realize now that I was wrong, not just in my belief on the truth of the Bible but on how I presented what I did believe at the time and how I presented it. To accuse an entire group of people of blind faith which is a polite way of saying they do not understand what they believe. To claim that religion not man is accountable for the atrocities of the world are very wrong assumptions indeed. The most important thing I learned was that all though I had obtained great knowledge, I had not obtained great wisdom.

                                                      • 1 vote
                                                      #17.4 - Mon Mar 21, 2011 12:46 AM EDT
                                                      Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                                      An argument I have heard over and over again. How is raising a child to love all of mankind a form of child abuse? How is raising a child with a foundation of morals child abuse? It is a irrational and unfounded argument. I can tell you from personal experience that all the children I know being raised in Christian homes are well adjusted loving children and in some cases no adults. Many of them are home schooled and are well ahead of there public schooled friends. HIRAM.

                                                      Home schooling is something that has been allowed in the US so that Christian families could avoid their children to be taught to reason for themselves, and I am sorry on this one I cannot agree with you, as the cultural level in the US is abysmal today. Though a legal practice in some European countries the children are subjected to strict examination procedures, in Germany, Greece and Italy it is illegal (and it should be throughout the EU). Home schooling is an abomination! As a lawyer and a Professor at University level it shouldn't be allowed period!

                                                      Man has committed atrocities in the name of many things. Man will use what ever he needs to accomplish what he wants. Statistics show that the number of people killed in the name of religion is far less than another reason. It is a disputable fact to say otherwise is a fallacy. Statistically pre 20 th century Democide killed approximately 133,147,000 people those that can be attributed directly to religious influence is only 2,650,00. Not all of these can be attributed to Christians but is a number of all religions. The figures for the 20th century are just as revealing.

                                                      Here too I cannot agree with you.

                                                      Genocide is a system unique to European Christianity and has been central to the spread of corporate capitalism and war. Genocide is a religious ideology based upon the belief in "Christian Superior Dominion" over all peoples and the planet. Regarding your figures I find no correlation in them with the reality of millions massacred in the name of religion. Regarding your statement on the Australians Aborigines you'll have to read my next article on the scourge of the religious Missionaries on this planet.

                                                      I agree with you that you'll never convince me, as I will never convince you (nor is it my intention, anyway) about the role of Religion. Though I respect you as a human being and thus I respect your choice of beliefs, I cannot accept that such faiths are based on anything but faith, as logically, scientifically, historically they are simply myths created to exert and control masses for the benefit of a minority of manipulators.

                                                      So we shall have to agree to disagree. Regards.

                                                        #17.5 - Mon Mar 21, 2011 8:34 AM EDT
                                                        KnightofChrist

                                                        Aside the blasphemy of such writings and such an attack on God and faith itself, did you ever consider great lawyer or professor that you are if your friend wasn't possessed by the Devil in her youth and that it was possession by Satan that caused the parents to act the way they did, and not their faith in Christ. Did it ever occur to you that it was Satan and not the little girl who seduced the mother and the father into mortal sin, as he was harvesting souls.

                                                        May God forgive you for writing such an abomination.

                                                          #17.6 - Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:18 AM EDT
                                                          Hiram-1381633

                                                          Home schooling is something that has been allowed in the US so that Christian families could avoid their children to be taught to reason for themselves

                                                          As a lawyer and a Professor at University level it shouldn't be allowed period!

                                                          The children I know that are and were home schooled are far above those educated in the public system. Most of them graduate high school early with excellent grades and many at 16-17 are already in university. The second point you make is a logical fallacy, making the point that because I am more educated than most I know better.

                                                          Here too I cannot agree with you.

                                                          Whether you agree with me or not is irrelevant, these are the numbers. You claim that you only look at the facts and yet when presented with facts that do no agree with your point you brush them off like so much dust.

                                                          Though I respect you as a human being and thus I respect your choice of beliefs,

                                                          If you truly meant this you would not spend so much time trying to prove that Christians are bigoted, irrational, uncaring, hateful, homicidal people. Or as you stated a scourge. I am sorry my friend but none of you writings contain respect, what they do contain is a loathing for a group of people you do not agree with and ultimately that makes me sad. For if you truly understood what it means to be a Christian, if you truly knew what it means to walk in the steps of Christ, if you truly knew what it means to be a disciple of Christ you would know it is not a religion it is a way of life. It is a life dedicated to the betterment of man. So we will part agreeing to disagreeing and I with a heavy heart hoping that one day your hatred will subside.

                                                          • 1 vote
                                                          #17.7 - Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:14 AM EDT
                                                          Ron in CT

                                                          Well, the religious wing nuts have spoken. It is not the woman's religious teachings but her demonic possession that caused her to abuse. It would seem that god and the devil have the same relationship as love and hate, the same emotion, just different degree. Seems to me God and the Devil are the same thing, both conjured from the imagination of the feeble minded to explain the things they could not fathom.

                                                          As to home schooling, it is the single most influential factor in the lack of critical thinking being manifest by so many of our youth and young adults. The decline of critical thinking, as well as scientific curiosity is well documented and has declined in direct relation to the increase in popularity of home schooling and fundamentalist religious education. Places where religious dogma and anti-science are taught by the intellectually impaired. It is of little wonder as to why the US is falling behind the rest of the industrialized world those areas.

                                                            #17.8 - Wed Mar 23, 2011 11:25 AM EDT
                                                            Venator

                                                            As to home schooling, it is the single most influential factor in the lack of critical thinking being manifest by so many of our youth and young adults. The decline of critical thinking, as well as scientific curiosity is well documented and has declined in direct relation to the increase in popularity of home schooling and fundamentalist religious education. Places where religious dogma and anti-science are taught by the intellectually impaired. It is of little wonder as to why the US is falling behind the rest of the industrialized world those areas.

                                                            Exactly how many is that the issue? Just a total lack of interests and/or encouragement in science and the break down of the school system seem to be a more probable reasons and the main reasons as to why we are so far behind.

                                                              #17.9 - Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:19 PM EDT
                                                              Hiram-1381633

                                                              As to home schooling, it is the single most influential factor in the lack of critical thinking being manifest by so many of our youth and young adults. The decline of critical thinking, as well as scientific curiosity is well documented and has declined in direct relation to the increase in popularity of home schooling and fundamentalist religious education.

                                                              Then please explain to me why the young adults I know are getting straight A's at secular Universities as they purse careers in engineering and medicine. The idea that religion is anti-science is a pseudo argument that carries no weight. As I myself work in the medical field , I know many engineers from all disciplines, test pilots, doctors and research scientist whom are all religious.

                                                              Why is it so important for those that do not believe to try and prove that those that do are ignorant or uneducated? I have never made the assumption that those that do not believe are uneducated nor are they ignorant. I in fact I also know many highly intelligent people from many other beliefs. I personally find the attacks on their intelligence of believers to be unfounded and unproductive.

                                                              As a Christian I am taught by Christ to love my neighborer as I love myself. I would never look in the mirror and assume I was unintelligent. I am to love my enemies (which at times is a hard thing to do) insulting them is not a form of love. How can we be expected to have meaningful discussions if the integrity and intelligence of either party is always in question? Mutual respect is the only way to peace.

                                                              • 1 vote
                                                              #17.10 - Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:20 PM EDT
                                                              Reply
                                                              Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                                              he idea that religion is anti-science is a pseudo argument that carries no weight. As I myself work in the medical field , I know many engineers from all disciplines, test pilots, doctors and research scientist whom are all religious. Hiram

                                                              The only way an intelligent man can believe in any religion is to set aside his intelligence and act on faith. Faith by its own definition doesn't allow critical thinking, so in order to believe in dogma one has forcibly be compartmental in his brain. As a University Professor I go often to the States on visits and seminars, and I tell you that the level of many American students is well below European standard. Home schooling, as both Ron and Venator have commented more than eloquently is probably a contributing factor not only in the lack of critical thinking but also in the lack of lateral thinking, it simply shouldn't be allowed.

                                                                #18 - Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:39 PM EDT
                                                                Hiram-1381633

                                                                Dr-

                                                                The only way an intelligent man can believe in any religion is to set aside his intelligence and act on faith.

                                                                Your first statement is logical fallacy, which you have repeated over and over again.

                                                                Has it ever occurred to you that the level of American students is due to the failure of the public school system? When compared to the number of students that are home schooled the number that go to public school is far greater. Again we see the use of the pseudo argument that if one is religious they are not intelligent. I have asked and have yet gotten the answer as to why this is important? Why must it be necessary to questions ones intelligence if they believe? Does this in some way validate your own ego? "I am more intelligent than them" Or is this just a way of showing prejudice through a pseudo superiority.

                                                                It saddens me that it has come down to this. Why cannot we just accept people for who they are? Christ did just that, I have no ill will towards you nor do I think you are unintelligent. I do not think you are bad or evil person. Why is there a need to attack this particular group of people known as Christians?

                                                                • 1 vote
                                                                #18.1 - Wed Mar 23, 2011 12:52 PM EDT
                                                                Ron in CT

                                                                A not so recent study, one that was compiled in 2007, it not only references the huge increase in home schooling, up 74% in 3 years and trending even higher, it references the following:

                                                                The number of parents reporting the ability to provide moral or religious instruction as a rationale for homeschooling their children increased by 11 percentage points (from 72 percent in 2003 to 83 percent in 2007.

                                                                This has been the main reason for home schooling since it became popular in the early 1980's.

                                                                Now, take the decline in critical thinking and science test scores as referenced by the exerpt below:

                                                                Britannica: Based on your study results, how significantly has creativity decreased in U.S. children?

                                                                Kim:Creativity decreased over the last 20 years. The results indicate that all of the scores of the Lateral/Innovative thinking factor, Vertical/Adaptive thinking factor, and Creative personality factor have significantly decreased or have significantly started decreasing. The decrease has been more in recent years than earlier years. The results of each subscale of the TTCT are below:

                                                                Decrease in Fluency after 1990: Fluency scores (quantity of the ideas: ability to produce a number of ideas) decreased by 4.68% from 1990 to 1998 and by 7.00% from 1990 to 2008.

                                                                Decrease in Originality after 1990: Originality scores (quality of the ideas: ability to produce a number of statistically infrequent ideas that shows how unique and unusual the ideas are) decreased by 3.74% from 1990 to 1998 and remained static from 1998 to 2008. Originality scores have actually significantly decreased, but the decrease has been deflated through the use of outdated scoring lists.

                                                                Decrease in Creative Strengths after 1990: Creative Strengths scores (creative personality traits, including being emotionally expressive, energetic, talkative or verbally expressive, humorous, imaginative, unconventional, lively or passionate, perceptive, connecting seemingly irrelevant things together, synthesizing, and seeing things from a different angle) decreased by 3.16% from 1990 to 1998 and by 5.75% from 1990 to 2008.

                                                                Decrease in Elaboration after 1984: Elaboration scores (ability to develop and elaborate upon ideas and detailed and reflective thinking and motivation to be creative) decreased more than other subscales of the TTCT. Elaboration scores decreased by 19.41% from 1984 to 1990, by 24.62% from 1984 to 1998, and by 36.80% from 1984 to 2008.

                                                                Decrease in Abstractness of Titles after 1998: Titles scores (ability to produce the thinking processes of synthesis and organization, to capture the essence of the information involved, and to know what is important) increased until 1998, but decreased by 7.41% from 1998 to 2008.

                                                                Decrease in Resistance to Premature Closure after 1998: Closure scores (intellectual curiosity and open-mindedness) decreased from 1984 to 1990, increased from 1990 to 1998, and decreased by 1.84% from 1998 to 2008.

                                                                While these declines in basic reasoning skills are not solely the result of home or fundamentalist schooling, they are quite telling and do show decreases that mirror the increase in alternative schooling.

                                                                While it is true that Home and Fundamentalist school children do test better than public schools by about 3-5 points in math, language and social studies, they do not in science, where they are about even with public schools and behind private, non theocracy based schools by almost 5 percentage points.

                                                                  #18.2 - Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:12 PM EDT
                                                                  Hiram-1381633

                                                                  Ron -

                                                                  Interesting analogy, I would like a link to the above study if you would be so kind as to provide that information. I will however still stand by the argument that the decrease in the above skills has more to do with the failure of the public school system than it does home schooling. The extrapolation you make is based solely on your own observation which as with mine is bias based on our starting points. Other factors that need to be consider when we think of the decrease in creative thinking in our younger generations is the increase in the availability of computer games such as X-Box or Play Station. Children to day are no longer required to use their imaginations for play that is already done for them. Using the same figures we can extrapolate that the increase in these types of devices also correlates to the information in the study. There are too many variables to consider to say that Home schooling is a significant contributor to the decrase in critical thinking skills.

                                                                  • 1 vote
                                                                  #18.3 - Wed Mar 23, 2011 3:42 PM EDT
                                                                  Ron in CT

                                                                  The growth in home and fundamentalist schooling and the reason for it are easily discerned when listening to Gary Bauer, former Republican presidential candidate and Family Research Council president when states one of the religious right's primary objectives,

                                                                  "We are engaged in a social, political and cultural war. There's a lot of talk in America about pluralism. But the bottom line is somebody's values will prevail. And the winner gets to teach our children what to believe."

                                                                  I find it telling and disturbing that this statement was made at all, over 10 years ago they announced that they were in a battle to indoctrinate our children, it sure looks like they are winning that war. It would be fine with them to brain wash every man woman and child in the US, but since they can only get their hands on the kids.........

                                                                    #18.4 - Wed Mar 23, 2011 4:52 PM EDT
                                                                    Hiram-1381633

                                                                    Ron-

                                                                    He is right some ones values are going to prevail. That is a simple truth that I believe most can agree upon. I believe he is speaking from the context public school not home schooling. Brainwashing is a fallacy, each and every parent has the right to teach and raise their children in a manner that reflects their values. Whether they be Christian, Muslim, or Atheist. If your argument stands to reason then every parent is brainwashing their children. We all know that is not the case.

                                                                    I can tell you from experience with the families I know that their children are raised in Christianhomes and are free to make what every decision they want when it comes to accepting Christ or not. There are those that have chosen not to and are still loved and care for. I am sure there are other experiences that reflect the op postie , and in my opinion they are wrong. You cannot force anyone to believe including children to be Christians. What you can do is give them all the information and allow them to make their own decision. The best example a parent has is living a life that reflects Christ, that more than any teaching is the greatest lesson.

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #18.5 - Wed Mar 23, 2011 5:33 PM EDT
                                                                    Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                                                    Again we see the use of the pseudo argument that if one is religious they are not intelligent. I have asked and have yet gotten the answer as to why this is important? Why must it be necessary to questions ones intelligence if they believe? Does this in some way validate your own ego? "I am more intelligent than them" Or is this just a way of showing prejudice through a pseudo superiority. HIRAM

                                                                    It is neither a question of ego or superiority. An intelligent man chooses to ignore scientific and historical facts and embraces a faith, be it Christian, Muslim or Jewish, but to do so he/she has to set aside all critical historical and scientific elements that make that faith totally illogical. Now you say you work in the medical field, so you have some sort of scientific background so do you really believe that the earth is only 6000 years old? According to your faith and the book of Genesis that's verbatim. Now aside the fact that the earth is much older, and that men didn't have Tyrannosaurus Rexes has house pets as some of Intelligent Design Gurus try to make people believe, I could show you historically and with facts that what you call Christ never actually existed, starting with that little fact that there wasn't a city called Bethlehem in 1AD, or that the first real info on the man Christ came 100 years after his death. The Bible, which one? The first one composed by St. Gerolamus who by his own admission " added, cut, edited and re-wrote entire chapters from the many old Jewish and Persian texts available." The reference to Persia is very important as the first widespread monotheistic religion was Zoroastrianism that if you look it up correlates well with the Christian doctrine. Or the St. James Bible of 1611, the one that opened the way to the Protestant Reformation ?

                                                                    can tell you from experience with the families I know that their children are raised in Christianhomes and are free to make what every decision they want when it comes to accepting Christ or not. There are those that have chosen not to and are still loved and care for. I am sure there are other experiences that reflect the op postie , and in my opinion they are wrong. You cannot force anyone to believe including children to be Christians. What you can do is give them all the information and allow them to make their own decision. The best example a parent has is living a life that reflects Christ, that more than any teaching is the greatest lesson. HIRAM

                                                                    That is simply not true! And furthermore the children are fed selective information by religious households depending on whether the parents are Christians, Muslim, or Jews. That is why home schooling should be illegal, because the function of schools is to teach not brainwash.Without any frame of reference for your parents' opinions being just opinions, and possibly being tested on those opinions (which in some cases, such as Lamb and Lynx Gaede or the Westboro Baptists), children are basically zombies. If all you're taught is hate, hate will be all you know. Children need to interact with their peers, need to study history, philosophy, literature, sciences, mathematics, geography, languages, history, so that by the time they are in their teens they have the critical and cultural means to make informed choices be them political, religious or social.

                                                                    The best example a parent has is living a life that reflects Christ, that more than any teaching is the greatest lesson. HIRAM

                                                                    Excuse the sarcasms but it's unavoidable, so by that you mean a father that resurrects the dead, walks on water, drops fishes and bread out of the sky, is crucified and killed and then resurrects (making his sacrifice for the rest of humanity not much of a sacrifice really). Now that would open a whole new branch of psychiatry I am sure.

                                                                    And lastly my friend you are wrong as I attack all religions be it Christian, Muslim or Jewish. Only on what I wrote on Islam I have collected three Fatwas and an inbox full of threats, so I am an equal opportunity attacker. LOL!!!

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #18.6 - Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:26 PM EDT
                                                                    Hiram-1381633

                                                                    Dr.

                                                                    When it comes to the points of intelligenceit looks like we have reached an impasse which I expected.

                                                                    That is simply not true!

                                                                    Another fallacy, how can you know what is and is not true in my own eexperiences? You assume that what I say is not true based on your own bias and experience. Which do not apply to me as you have not experienced what I have.

                                                                    If all you're taught is hate, hate will be all you know.

                                                                    You are correct, and if all you aer taught is love, love is all you will know.

                                                                    " And the second of these commandments is to love your neighbor as you love yourself"

                                                                    " By this all will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another"

                                                                    " This is My commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you"

                                                                    Children need to interact with their peers, need to study history, philosophy, literature, sciences, mathematics, geography, languages, history, so that by the time they are in their teens they have the critical and cultural means to make informed choices be them political, religious or social.

                                                                    You are absolutely correct and the home schooled children I know do justt that.

                                                                    Excuse the sarcasms but it's unavoidable,

                                                                    I am a big fan of sarcasm, and have used it my own life. Yet when it is used in such a condescending and insulting manner it should and is avoidable. I would expect so much more from a man of your obvious intelligence and education.

                                                                    • 1 vote
                                                                    #18.7 - Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:16 PM EDT
                                                                    Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                                                    Biblical Basis for Homeschooling

                                                                    As a Christian, you may be wondering whether or not there is a Biblical basis for homeschooling. After all, if your children are not in school, how can they be 'salt and light'? While each Christian family must decide for themselves whether or not to homeschool, the Bible does not leave Christian parents without guidance when it comes to the education of their children.

                                                                    Biblical Basis for Homeschooling in Dueteronomy 11

                                                                    In Deuteronomy 11, God is instructing the Israelites to keep "His words" at the forefront of their lives. The essence of His instruction to them is to constantly be thinking of His law, His ways and His character. God even tells the Israelites repeatedly, that they should be careful to teach His laws to their children as they "sit down, walk in the road, lie down at night, and get up." In short, God is saying that the Israelites should be constantly talking about God's laws with their children. Given that parents are instructed to teach their children about God repeatedly in Scripture, many Christian parents have interpreted this to include homeschooling as well.

                                                                    Raising Godly Children

                                                                    For many Christians, the Biblical basis for homeschooling isn't merely about teaching Godly principles to their children. After all, a Christian family who chooses to send their children to public school would still teach Godly principles to their children. However, the advantage of homeschooling in this area is that you can literally teach Godly principles to your children throughout every minute of your day. You can teach God's character through science (Psalm 104), teach about God's hand in history, as well as include Scripture memory right into your school day. In other words, Christian parents would do well to consider the positive effects of having God "infused" in every area of study.

                                                                    Keeping Away Ungodly Influences

                                                                    Sometimes, teaching Godliness is not just about what you say, but what you avoid as well. Teaching your children to live by godly principles involves not only instruction in the Bible, but it also involves avoiding those things that are not godly. For some parents, this would include the public school system curriculum, as well as other children whose parents are not believers. While it certainly should not be implied that teachers or other students are inherently "evil", it cannot be argued that God, the Bible or Christianity is not taught in a public school system. Keeping away ungodly influences while children are young, can help build a foundation for training in the future.

                                                                    Parental Responsibility

                                                                    Another aspect to Biblical homeschooling that can be gleaned from reading Scripture is that education is always the parents' responsibility. Regardless of how the parents choose to educate their children, the education of those children is always the responsibility of the parents. Therefore, if the school system is inadequate or there are no other alternatives, many parents assume that the appropriate recourse is to homeschool.

                                                                    Educated to Be Servant Leaders

                                                                    Another advantage that homeschooling offers is flexibility for students to have a variety of enriching experiences. In the Christian home, these "extras" could take on the form of ministry with one's church, missions trips, or other volunteer work. While students who are schooled in public school could do this also, homeschooling allows more flexibility and therefore more opportunities. It also allows for the community service to be intertwined with growth in the faith.

                                                                    Building a Solid Foundation

                                                                    No doubt Christian are called to be in the world but not of it. Homeschooling allows Christian families to build a solid foundation so that as children grow into young women and young men, they are capable to not only serve others, but defend their faith with confidence. Homeschooling is all about creating that solid foundation that parents are called to give their children.

                                                                    Author: Valorie Delp (Christian Fundamentalist educationalists)

                                                                    Let's face it, homeschooling is wrong. Homeschooling for religious reasons is especially wrong. For the most part from what I've read, it seems that parents that home school openly say that they do it to shelter or protect their children. They also claim there are many advantages to homeschooling.

                                                                    But are these really good for your children in the long run? Does it really make them better people?

                                                                    Some of the main reasons people home school their kids are they don't think that public schools offer a good enough education. But can a parent actually offer a better one? In most cases a parent only has to have a high school diploma to teach their children. In conventional schools each teacher is specially trained to teach the subjects they teach.

                                                                    This limits what the children can learn.

                                                                    In a traditional classroom a child will engage in group projects, class discussions and learn from other peers. This is an important part of learning that a homeschooled kid would not participate in. A child needs to learn how to work with others. (Activities like sports and other groups don't provide actually working intellectually with others) In a class room children also learn about different ethnicities, cultures and lifestyles.
                                                                    Being in a classroom with a teacher also teaches the child respect for the person in charge. Not just a parent. This is a quality that would be used in life such as having a job and dealing with a boss or in college. Also it is natural for a child to rebel from their parents. How is a child going to learn if he or she doesn't want to listen to you?

                                                                    When people home school because of religious reasons it prevents the children from learning about different religions and results in either ignorance or close-mindedness.

                                                                    The only reason parents do this, from what I've seen and read in the various reports from the Ministry of Education is that they want to instill their values and beliefs in their child. Is this fair to the child? To only know what their parents want them to know isn't fair. A major benefit in any democratic country is that people can practice whatever religion they want, or not practice one at all.

                                                                    Children have that right too.

                                                                    So tell me if this isn't child abuse?

                                                                    http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2009-05-28-homeschooling-report_N.htm#uslPageReturn

                                                                    http://nces.ed.gov/programs/coe/2009/section1/indicator06.asp

                                                                      #18.8 - Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:22 PM EDT
                                                                      Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                                                      And by the way Hiram, you still haven't answered my question. Do you believe that the earth is 6000 years old?

                                                                      Moreover I am not attacking or passing judgement on your experiences they are yours and lived by you. This isn't a personal attack on yourself, I am speaking of general principles. Everybody lives and interprets events in life in the way they affect him/her. It's like war, if you have been in one like I have, useless trying to make anyone understand the experience of combat to someone who hasn't lived through that.

                                                                      Here again, what came first the chicken or the egg? Facts or faith!

                                                                        #18.9 - Wed Mar 23, 2011 7:48 PM EDT
                                                                        Hiram-1381633

                                                                        Do you believe that the earth is 6000 years old?

                                                                        6-10 thousand years old.

                                                                        what came first the chicken or the egg?

                                                                        The chicken God created birds on day 5.

                                                                          #18.10 - Wed Mar 23, 2011 8:16 PM EDT
                                                                          Venator

                                                                          Ron,

                                                                          You are correct that religion & spiritual reasons is the main reason for a choosing homeschooling with a 32% share according to this source.

                                                                          What specifics about religious reasons is another question. I mean are these people homeschooling because of evolution vs. creationism reason or moral reasons? From a Christian stand point, is it truly they want the teachings of Jesus to be part of their childrens' lives and do not agree with the potential extreme fundamental views of a religious schools?

                                                                          While it is true that Home and Fundamentalist school children do test better than public schools by about 3-5 points in math, language and social studies, they do not in science, where they are about even with public schools and behind private, non theocracy based schools by almost 5 percentage points.

                                                                          One could understand that science may be a lagging subject compared to others. Science does not come easy for everyone and poor teaching may be a result of that. Is it really parents do not want their kids being taught evolution or they just do not have a good understanding of biology overall?

                                                                          Personally, I think it is scarier to think that people are teaching kids personal financing than creationism. One can believe in creationism and not affect anyone else, but finances effects everyone in some way, shape, or form. The last 3 years is a prime example of this.

                                                                          "We are engaged in a social, political and cultural war. There's a lot of talk in America about pluralism. But the bottom line is somebody's values will prevail. And the winner gets to teach our children what to believe."

                                                                          This is a scary quote, I will not question that. But there is a scene of a desire for pluralism in society. Is parents wanting their children only taught "true" Christian values a bad thing? More importantly why do we hold personal religious views to a hire standard compared to everything else? I know an individual who is home schooling his children and religion was the main factor, but from the beginning religion seemed to rank lower and hammers more keeping capitalistic and small government values in his kids and does not want to teach his children that actions by Obama is not what the government is supposed to be doing.

                                                                          As far as thinking encouraging peer interaction goes, there is very little of it in school believe it or not.

                                                                          I mean the bus ride in the morning was dead silent, once there the halls are crowded with kids trying to finish homework that they put off till the last minute, from then on it is sit down and shut up for the most part. Students do not really want to interact in discussions and are just waiting for the day to end. There is better social interaction on XBOX live than school.

                                                                          Dr.,

                                                                          I understand your points, but with all do respect you seem to have a very extreme view that homeschooling is torture and brainwashing when that is not entirely the case. Hiram has stated that homeschooling has been a relative success and can be better for students compared to other schools. However, comparing to the U.S. school system is not necessarily anything to brag about. Although, there great examples of success into secondary education.

                                                                          Here again, what came first the chicken or the egg? Facts or faith!

                                                                          Both. :)

                                                                            #18.11 - Wed Mar 23, 2011 10:11 PM EDT
                                                                            Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                                                            VENATOR, I see where you are coming from in your argument, but home-schooling based on religious reasons is wrong! It is pure indoctrination and brainwashing and it is, or should be considered child abuse by the criminal law. I tell you that as a jurist I would have no qualms in prosecuting a family who does that. Hiram, though acting in good faith, of that I have no doubt has his judgement impaired by his faith and that precludes rationale thinking. Moreover, especially if as you say these parents keep their kids from a proper education so that they can be taught the ludicrous concepts of pseudo-psycho babble that constitutes the whole Creation vs. Evolution argument, that luckily only rages in the US and not in Europe, as we historically tend not allow nut-cases into classrooms to teach this sort of crap.

                                                                            If we look at what I posted on 18:9 then we can see that the whole concept behind the argument put forward by Valorie Delp (Christian Educationalists) is akin to a training manual for future Religious Taliban. Just this morning the BBC released the news of a video concerning Pakistani children being indoctrinated to be suicide bombers, and in view of this overwhelming and factual evidence of the nefarious influence of Religion, be it Christian, Muslim or Jewish I find it astounding that men of clear intelligence, can be so clouded by irrational faith in a religion as to clearly ignore the brutality of these facts or try to justify them.

                                                                            I live in Switzerland, where home-schooling has been legal on a Federal level but left to individual Kantons to interpret and apply the Law. This is now thankfully changing, and both in Canton St.Gallen, Graubdner (where I reside), and Aarau it has been made totally illegal thanks to influence of Professors like my good friend, Professor Georg Stöckli of the Education Institute of the University of Zürich, and the work of many other professors and teachers including myself. Since 2008 the Zurich Canton has granted homeschooling rights only to parents who are certified teachers.

                                                                            This year we will have a referendum on home-schooling backed by the UDP (right) and Socialist and Green (left) to make home-schooling illegal at a Federal level and it will win, because it has the backing of the teachers union, and the University Lecturers association. It would be nice to see crime of religious indoctrination of children be put in the Criminal Code, but that will happen another time. Luckily here the families that opt for home schooling are few and far between, but even these few are getting away with child abuse and it has to stop. What I would like to see is the same Law that is in force in Germany, where home-schooling is illegal and children can be taken away from their families by social services if they try and deny their children a proper education, which is a fundamental human right.

                                                                            If you have the chance find the excellent book The Civic Perils of Home-schooling (2002) professor Rob Reich political scientist at Stanford University where he develops comprehensively how homeschooling gives students a one-sided point of view, as their parents may, even unwittingly or knowingly, block or diminish all points of view but their own in teaching. He also develops an interesting and sensible argument on how home-schooling, by reducing students' contact with peers, reduces their sense of civic engagement with their community.

                                                                              #18.12 - Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:46 AM EDT
                                                                              Venator

                                                                              I understand where you are coming from, and I share your concern for extreme fundamentalists teaching.

                                                                              However, I do think it is premature to say that these children are being forced to believe in creationism over evolution. I just pointed that our as an example and I really on expect such teaching from extremists or people that want a more opened minded, non-literal approach to the concept which combines every fact of evolution and the story of creationism.

                                                                              I can not agree with you on homeschooling being a form of child abuse. Yes, there are cases where homeschooling may fall under a form of child abuse, but to say that this form of education is bad when there are statistics showing that these "students" achieve very well and are prepared and excel in college. I do not know where you are getting the idea that just because religion is the main reason as to why parents are choosing to teach their children at home; you thing that the bible is being read to them every second; because information like such pretty much disproves that theory in the majority of cases.

                                                                              Religious teaching for these parents does not mean creationism or prestigious ideals being forced upon their children, but really just prefer to enforce morals such as the 10 commandments and teachings of Jesus, at least from a Christian stand point.

                                                                              It really is hard to hold religious teachings to a hire standard over everything else. "Indoctrination" is something that does not go away, it exists in many different forms. Which was a subtle point I was trying to make in a poem I had to write for one of my college classes recently.

                                                                              As far as the concept homeschooling in general, it is not going to go away in the U.S. if not thrive. Much of the classes and subjects are conducted online, which is a concept being extensively adopted and practiced at the college level and is only a matter of time before it becomes a preference at the elementary level. Soon religion will no longer be the main reason, but that is just my opinion.

                                                                              Homeschooling being illegal will be something I will be very shocked to see happen here in the states. it would be a clear violation and infringement on the rights and freedoms citizens have in this country. Republicans would have nothing but a field day with this argument and would be hard to even see Democrats considering making illegal as well. Parents have a right to raise their children how they see fit.

                                                                              One should also consider the Statistics as well, in some cases the other reasons in the survey fit under the religious category for many people and simple chose religion as there main reason. One also should not ignore the other minority reasons as well.

                                                                              Obviously there are great cultural differences that exists between the U.S. and Europe. Extreme fundamental religious indoctrination may be a huge problem in Europe, but here in the states it is the last thing one thinks as the problem. I know a few people that are home-schooled and do not show common organized religious prestigious views like one would think and are actually very opened mined individuals and probably "true" Jesus followers.

                                                                              He also develops an interesting and sensible argument on how home-schooling, by reducing students' contact with peers, reduces their sense of civic engagement with their community.

                                                                              I have to check the college library, but these reasons mentioned it is hard to even list home-schooling as one of the top reasons as to why youth have such problems. These problems already exists. Like I said earlier, their is less social interaction in the public schools than one thinks, and really only takes place outside of school for the most part. Even group efforts are reduced to one person figuring out a problem and the solution is shared. Anything else is really lack of interest and most prefer to work alone to begin with.

                                                                              Switzerland? Congratulations on your soon to be record setting tunnel. :)

                                                                              • 1 vote
                                                                              #18.13 - Thu Mar 24, 2011 12:16 PM EDT
                                                                              Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                                                              Obviously there are great cultural differences that exists between the U.S. and Europe. Extreme fundamental religious indoctrination may be a huge problem in Europe, but here in the states it is the last thing one thinks as the problem. Venator

                                                                              Here we are both in agreement regarding the cultural divide between Europe and the US. Europe lived through centuries of religious wars and persecutions something that the US in its short history never lived. Though people are religious they keep their religiosity in the private sphere, and keep that aspect out of the social arena. Of course people will go to churches, synagogues or Mosques but in general it doesn't disturb or affect the general societal structure. In this respect the principle of division between Church and State is sacrosanct ( to use a religious word), and so it should be.

                                                                              In the US there is at present a culture war, and it does worry us over here, also the progressive decline of american academia, phenomenons like the Tea Party, the rise of Religious fundamentalism or simply the thought of having another Bush facsimile in the White House is something that makes European uneasy. Just to give an idea it is absurd that a country like the US ranks 15th or 16th in the world rating regarding mathematic and science. Like we find absolutely appalling the debate Creation vs Evolution. Because there shouldn't even be a debate on such an issue, Creationism is at best a theory while evolution is a fact.

                                                                                #18.14 - Thu Mar 24, 2011 5:02 PM EDT
                                                                                Venator

                                                                                Dr. Riccardo Privitera,

                                                                                The concept is really not all that different over here in the states in most cases. For the most part religion is kept to one's self. At least this is the community I grew up in and it was considered to be a religious community. Although Christianity was the clear majority, everyone was seen as equals and enjoyed everyone's company. Even the Atheist in the community get into the Friday fish dinner tradition and no one treats him less for being Atheist, even one of the priest at one of the local churches enjoys his company and finds him to be a very caring individual who should be looked at as a model citizen.

                                                                                Believe me when I say that even Christians do not like the culture war. We see nothing but shame when we see extremists trying to create a bad name and disregarding of true Christian values.

                                                                                Very few want another Bush administration. The Tea party to most is simply a joke to most. However, I could see people voting for a Tea party candidate purely for economic reasons.

                                                                                I know you and I have conflicting views and different backgrounds. Considering your past and negative experience you had as a child with you parents conflicting backgrounds, I really can not blame you. I just want you to understand that more and more individuals are looking for more of a reform of religion and want to embrace true teachings of Christ, more open minded approaches to ancient texts (despite the corruption), and become less of an annoyance in the public. Neither do people want to feel as less of a person for having a different outlook on life.

                                                                                Corrupt organized religion is something we can both agree on.

                                                                                I kind of butcher my first paragraph and hope a few changes clarifies what I was trying to say. I really need to stop making so many grammar errors.

                                                                                However, I do think it is premature to say that these children are being forced to believe in creationism over evolution. I just pointed that out as an example and I really only expect such teaching from extremists, not people that want a more opened minded, non-literal approach to the concept which combines every fact of evolution and the story of creationism.

                                                                                  #18.15 - Thu Mar 24, 2011 10:57 PM EDT
                                                                                  Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                                                                  My dear Venator, when men of different views and experience can discuss issue in a civil and friendly manner like we do then there should still be hope for the human race. Believe it or not one of my best friends is a Catholic Monk, Andrew. After the Border War, one day he left South Africa went to Italy and joined the Order of St. Francis. Great man, looks ridiculous dressed up as Monk because he is nearly 7.3 and built like a wardrobe. It goes to show that life is full of surprises and each one of us is a unique individual.

                                                                                  Wish you a nice weekend.

                                                                                    #18.16 - Fri Mar 25, 2011 10:31 AM EDT
                                                                                    Venator

                                                                                    From my experience, Franciscan priest are true followers of Christ. They are individuals who truly committed to simply spreading the word of Jesus. This is one of the main reasons I am still Catholic, by seeing hope for modeling this kind of behavior instead of marching on Washington, yelling, and forcing people to follow their way of life. Which is what I meant by the quote I referenced above.

                                                                                    "Religion. It's given people hope in a world torn apart by religion."
                                                                                    — Jon Stewart

                                                                                    In all honesty, there has just been a complete breakdown in civil discussions period. Everyone has to take everything people say personally. I admit there are flaws and problems in the religion I am a part and I also admit there are flaws with the operations of my country. One does not have to look far to understand why George Washington wanted us to stay away from political parties.

                                                                                    Course it does not help when you have people like me who have poor skills when it comes to writing and trying to formulate my thoughts into words.

                                                                                    Organization equals corruption, unfortunately this exists in just about all parts of life.

                                                                                    Wish you a nice weekend.

                                                                                    Thanks, I wish you the same. :)

                                                                                      #18.17 - Fri Mar 25, 2011 12:09 PM EDT
                                                                                      Reply
                                                                                      missrighteous

                                                                                      As always Dr., a spectacular article!

                                                                                      Well written and well researched.

                                                                                      However, you will always have people, as we seen on this very thread, claiming against facts, that perhaps the Devil is responsible? How easy, how fruitless, how thoughtless and fictional.

                                                                                      Religion: the opiate of the masses, the crutch, and apparently, also its demise.

                                                                                      We are who we are, we are smart, intelligent and loving animals. We do NOT need fables to make us honest. Just use your head, your conscience, stop using these 'Holly' books as excuses or guides. Nature, biology, intelligence, heart... Those are the things we should focus on.

                                                                                      • 1 vote
                                                                                      Reply#19 - Wed Mar 23, 2011 1:00 PM EDT
                                                                                      Dr. Riccardo Privitera

                                                                                      My dear Missrighteous I have missed your presence on my forums, welcome back! And my most sincere wishes that all is well with you and the family. As usual thanks for your eloquent and witty intervention that I agree with wholeheartedly. Regards.

                                                                                        #19.1 - Wed Mar 23, 2011 6:30 PM EDT
                                                                                        Reply
                                                                                        KnightofChrist

                                                                                        If we want to raise good men and women as Christians, than home schooling is the only option. The Devil is far too present in the public schools, and he tempts our children with all sorts. The Jewish Bankers have bamboozled our people to a point that they put a Muslim in the White House, the Communist and the Socialists, the Satanists, the Pagans, the Godless and perverted Europeans are biting at the heels of this great Christian Nation. The only way we shall get our country is by making sure that our children are taught to be good Christian soldiers and restore our Nation to the Christian Glory wanted by our founding fathers.

                                                                                          Reply#20 - Mon Apr 18, 2011 7:37 AM EDT
                                                                                          Dale95

                                                                                          Sounds good and you make some good points but, the devil and all of the many demons of this earth live at home, with all of their many children. Intervention must take place, and that is the prime design of public schools.

                                                                                          I can't think of anything that isn't corrupt in this culture, so, everything needs a good tweaking, sorta speak.

                                                                                            #20.1 - Mon Apr 18, 2011 9:09 AM EDT
                                                                                            Ron in CT

                                                                                            Home schooling is a form of child abuse in many instances, especially when all they are taught is fanatical religious dogma and fairy tales. To no arm your children with fact is just as much of an abuse as refusing to give them needed medication or refusing to feed them.

                                                                                              #20.2 - Tue Apr 19, 2011 10:53 AM EDT
                                                                                              Reply
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